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Postmortem of my 9 year journey at Google

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Re: Postmortem of my 9 year journey at Google

#231

L6 ICs are pretty rare - it already is a top tier of seniority in engineering Is Google really different from other companies? I talk to a lot of Amazonians (AWS Hero, FreeBSD/EC2 maintainer) and my general impression is that developers below L7 ought to be classified as "Junior" -- my mapping is basically L4-L6 = Junior Developer, L7/L8 = Developer, and L10 = Senior Developer. Anything which doesn't have L7+ involve…

Like others mentioned, Amazon levels are one level below Google levels, and I think their higher ranks are also compressed. Also IMHO Google IC SWE levels of 2024 are about 1.5 levels below Google IC SWE levels of 2009 (i.e. a mid-L6 today is about as good as someone just promoted to L5 in 2010, an L8 promotee today is about a mid-L6 from 2010, a new L4 today is the equivalent of an intern back then). So with that ma…

> i.e. a mid-L6 today is about as good as someone just promoted to L5 in 2010, an L8 promotee today is about a mid-L6 from 2010, a new L4 today is the equivalent of an intern back then

This seems extremely surprising. I can believe that the 2010-engineers were more technically capable, but there was also a lot less non-technical complexity involved in getting things done in 2010 than there is today.

Re: Postmortem of my 9 year journey at Google

#232
post #37

> USA centric culture, if you are not in USA at Google and don’t have a big presence in a location it’s a bit like swimming upstream, it’s easy to feel isolated, sidelined or on the flipside overwhelmed with late meetings It's like the fourth time I read/hear this. I understand that it's a tricky one to adress.

This is US companies in general! Never work for one in another country; if you can help it. All decisions will be centralized to the US head office and require face to face. Communication is generally terrible. I’ve worked for European and Asian owned companies, and they seem to be able to handle distributed authority much better. For the “land of the free”, it sure seems like US companies run on a feudal system.

Sexist joke recycle:

Heaven is an American boss, Chinese cook, Russian wife and English house.

Hell is an English cook, Chinese house, Russian boss, and American wife.

Re: Postmortem of my 9 year journey at Google

#233
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at google and I use google products. Sure, some giant automated heap of code is processing your data and deciding how many grammerly adverts to show you, but your data is about as safe as it can be from loss or from humans. There are so many controls and checks in place when working with user data it's difficult to get things done some times (and quite rightly too).

How do we explain the deletion of the $135 billion Australian pension fund data that happened to UniSuper? Due to "an inadvertent misconfiguration of the GCVE service by Google operators due to leaving a parameter blank"? https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/infrastructure/detail...

It seems that they explained things fairly clearly in your link? What kind of answer are you fishing for?

Re: Postmortem of my 9 year journey at Google

#234
post #29

I've done the path from SWE to SRE and back to SWE. I was always happy to do production support and diagnose and fix production problems, so I naturally moved to SRE which is always looking for people. It was a real mistake, SRE is hugely stressful and really unrewarding compared to SWE. Yes you learn some skills and get some occasional glory, but year after year of fighting fires really didn't build any long lasting…

I've been running as SRE for the last decade, running critical stuff like authentication (which mostly all services depend on). I'm a software engineer. I cannot disagree more: our team is healthy, oncall is quite a fine activity to do (and compensated, of course), we have plenty of engineering work to do. I've had five promotions (and tripled salary) and done so working on plenty rewarding activities over time. I've…

I work in financials, so not tech

> oncall is quite a fine activity to do (and compensated, of course),

Overnight on call is never compensated. I know some tech companies pay but I've never seen it.

> deployment automation, to capacity planning, distributed system design, large data migrations, designing ietf standards for auth protocols, wrote client sdks, now we even do AI for different things (including model development).

To me that is mostly SWE work (capacity planning and migrations perhaps is SRE). in regulated environments SREs are explicitly forbidden from making changes to the code base.

> I'd recommend to not generalize from "I didn't like it / the experience wasn't a match for me" to "the role is shitty".

Agreed.

Re: Postmortem of my 9 year journey at Google

#235
post #228
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many middle managers at Apple that feel the need to justify their existence within the company, and as such they schedule endless meetings and/or send "urgent" emails that they expect you to respond to immediately. It got to a point of being almost farcical, where they were scheduling meetings at 9:30pm multiple times a week. After two years of it I had to leave, I was coming home catatonic and depressed…

can you please explain how these meetings got so out of hand? did you attend them? did you decline eventually? why, why not? how does it work? who was your actual boss? is there some kind of resource management? (ie. where your time is allocated?) thanks in advance! (I never worked at any FAANG thing, and I never worked for a US company, so this is extremely... interesting and strange.... because I am no stranger to…

I'm not going to pretend that I really understand the psychology of a person that thinks that 4+ hours of meetings a day is a good idea.

It started when my team opened up Singapore office. That's fine, but they are 12 hours ahead of New York, and the genius middle managers on my team thought it was very important that we synchronize on a lot of these meetings, and the only times that kind-of-sort-of-not-really "worked" for everyone was between 7:30pm-9:30pm NYC time.

That was already bad enough, but this genius would bog the first 5-10 minutes of the meetings with small talk, giving his opinion on the latest keynote or something else. Small talk is generally fine, but not when everyone is looking to go to bed.

It got really out of hand once COVID started. Suddenly, since everyone was working from home and as such it could be assumed that they had access to their work computer, managers just decided that there's basically no time off limits for a useless meeting.

> did you attend them?

Yes, most of the time. We'd get in trouble if we just skipped them.

> did you decline eventually?

As many as I could, but if I did it too often I could reliably expect a phone call complaining about it.

> how does it work? who was your actual boss?

I don't want to give specific names. My direct manager was actually fine and generally only scheduled meetings that were reasonable. His boss was pretty stupid, and scheduled a few useless meetings a week . His boss was a complete moron and I think was completely incapable of scheduling a meeting that was actually useful. The chain goes up several more levels.

It was more or less like Office Space: if you made a mistake you'd get like six managers separately explaining your mistake to you.

> is there some kind of resource management? (ie. where your time is allocated?)

Apple has its own ticketing system called "Radar". It's kind of like Jira or something, but it's a GUI app instead of a web application. Tickets are more or less ranked in the same way they are in Jira, you just estimate the number of hours it will take.

A few points of fairness to Apple:

- I'm a very annoying and difficult person to manage, and I am extremely impatient, so maybe I overreacted to all this stuff (though I know that I was not the only person really annoyed by this stuff).

- Judging by the high turnover rate my team had, I suspect that I was on an exceptionally poorly run team. I did try transferring to another team, and actually did pretty well in the interview, but I was declined because I had received a poor performance review the year before [1]. I know other people who worked at Apple who really like it, so I think I just had some bad luck.

[1] Honestly, the bad review was kind of justified, much as I hate to admit it. I had become pretty frustrated over a lot of stuff happening in my life and it was reflected in my work output. I did get better but not before the review period was over.

Re: Postmortem of my 9 year journey at Google

#237

There are a bunch of comments saying that Google is just like any other big tech company and that the exciting engineering bit has gone. My experience is only from the last 2.5 years, but I've got a slightly different take. Engineering from >10 years ago seems like it was a wild west. Some truly stunning pieces of technology, strung together with duct tape. Everything had its own configuration language, workflow engi…

I left over ten years ago and it's hard to understand that perspective. Back when I was an SRE (~2006 to 2009) there were only one or two monitoring systems (which didn't overlap, so you could argue there was one) and a handful of config languages. Compared to anywhere else Google had military levels of discipline and order. > Deployments were infrequent, unreliable, and sometimes even done from a dev's machine. Depl…

I think the state of the art has moved on quite a way from this. I understand the point of view that someone should be watching a release, but the alternative is not "no one watching a release", but more that binary releases should be no-ops. With feature flagging the binary release should do nothing different so that no one watching it is not a problem.

Additionally, rolling out from a dev machine brings so many risks – security, reproducibility, human error, and so on.

I'm glad this is not the way things work anymore, and for the most part things are more reliable as a result.

Re: Postmortem of my 9 year journey at Google

#238

There are a bunch of comments saying that Google is just like any other big tech company and that the exciting engineering bit has gone. My experience is only from the last 2.5 years, but I've got a slightly different take. Engineering from >10 years ago seems like it was a wild west. Some truly stunning pieces of technology, strung together with duct tape. Everything had its own configuration language, workflow engi…

"Bad engineering" in adhoc ways tends to mean new ideas are being explored. Sophisticated deployments, logistics, procedures, tends to mean you're optimizing or extending existing system. That's not to disparage the latter. making things work at scale is hard engineering. But when people praise the glory days, it may be a preference for working on new ideas in small projects.

There are most definitely trade-offs. Getting a small project off the ground now is hard because the size of the organisation puts so many requirements on you.

The way I like to look at it is that small things take a while, but big things happen remarkably quickly. For example, rolling out a "hello world" service might take a few days, but having that service serve 1M QPS is pretty much free (in terms of effort). At my previous place a new service might have taken an hour to set up a deployment for, but having it serve 1M QPS would have required overhauling several aspects of our infrastructure over months.

Re: Postmortem of my 9 year journey at Google

#239
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manifest v3 is an effort to make a browser slightly better at its core feature, that it is importantly already fine at, at the cost of making it worse at serving the user. The internet is increasingly user-hostile, and manifest v3 makes it harder to fight back.

Ironically the stricter permissions are because browser extensions sometimes have crap security and the Internet is a hostile place. The browser itself might be pretty much okay, but the extensions are where the terrible code is.

How co-incidental that Google chose a model that somehow reduces one of their significant revenue risks, that of ad blockers.

Clearly there was no other way... /s

Re: Postmortem of my 9 year journey at Google

#240
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s just another large US tech company. Like Microsoft and IBM before it. This is just a hyperbolic statement that should not be taken seriously at all. Look, Google isn't some fantasy land that some people might have lauded it as once upon a time, and it isn't unique in terms of pay or talent, but it is certainly at the top echelon. I did an interview loop for high level IC at both Azure and GCP simultaneously an…

> IBM has never a company where engineers could rise to the same ranks as directors and higher with a solid IC track. Never? Maybe if you’re talking the last 15-20 years, but IBM has been around a lot longer than that… I personally know people who moved up the ranks there to director and above, so I can say with confidence you’re absolutely wrong.

>I personally know people who moved up the ranks there to director and above,

I didn't mean that engineers can't become directors, I meant that IBM didn't have a track for top ICs to get paid more than directors and still not be on a manager track.

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