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Apple is America's semiconductor problem

semiconductor-digest.com

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Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#231

Post by mcphage »

freedomben wrote: post #125
mcphage wrote: post #43

> In 2017, when Apple announced it was moving away from using UK-based Imagination Technologies for graphics processors, the company lost two thirds of its value overnight. I'm not sure what the author is suggesting here. They licensed technology from Imagine Technologies, so therefore they must continue licensing their technology? Also: Imagine Technologies is a chip designer, not a chip fabricator. It's stuck in at…

> I'm not sure what the author is suggesting here. They licensed technology from Imagine Technologies, so therefore they must continue licensing their technology? I think you're overreading it. I don't think the author is arguing that Apple must stay a customer. Rather they are making a point about how much power Apple has a company. They clearly have the power to make or break other companies. That of course doesn't…

> I think you're overreading it. I don't think the author is arguing that Apple must stay a customer. Rather they are making a point about how much power Apple has a company.

Maybe, but to me it reads more like "I'm writing a piece complaining about Apple, so I'll bring up every complaint about Apple I can think of, even if they're not really related to the article topic itself".

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#232

Post by baxtr »

msrenee wrote: post #222
baxtr wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then what does make something evil? Nature clearly doesn’t distinguish good vs evil. We humans do.

That's a much bigger question than whether one can commit an evil act without considering it evil.

No. It’s the exact same question. Good vs evil are created in your head. Unless you believe in God or something similar.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#233

Post by johnea »

ankit219 wrote: post #107

A weird article. Apple was not the first or the only company to look to East Asia for cheap manufacturing, elctronic equipments, chips, or cheap labor. The trend was started and accelerated by motor companies and hardware just followed suit. Then, some other points are just...there. Apple is America's semiconductor problem because Apple is so big it purchases things in bulk and gets discounts - like every other big c…

It never ceases to amaze me that the "magical invisible hand" folks instantly leap to socialism whenever they actually need to invest in innfrastructure 8-/

If intel/amd/etc can't build their own fabs, and expect we-the-people to pay for it, then we-the-people should jump to socialism and nationalise the lot.

If we have to pay for it, we should own it...

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#234

Post by cryptica »

_djo_ wrote: post #193
cryptica wrote: post #180

In this case, people are the problem for being suggestible and buying Apple obsessively. I've worked for 3 different tech companies which bought and forced me to use an expensive company-supplied MacBook, in spite of the fact that their software project ran in production on Linux which is free. The problem is that people are brainwashed.

That says more about you than about those making those decisions. Have you ever spent the time to figure out why those tech companies might prefer to issue Macs? To look at their total cost of ownership numbers, at the availability of configuration management and security software, at levels of support, and at overall reliability and machine lifespan? I've been involved in a few exercises to decide what type of machi…

One of the companies I worked for (a non-profit), the product I was working on was 100% open source and 100% running on Linux, but they still forced me to used a company-supplied Apple Macbook instead of letting me use my personal computer which would have cost them nothing.

In the 2 other companies, I started work with my personal Linux computer but they forced me to switch to a company-supplied Macbook later. It's not about costs.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#235

Post by duskwuff »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #156
duskwuff wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also probably worth mentioning that a lot of the automotive chip shortages were a result of industry-specific factors: 1) Auto manufacturers incorrectly predicted that the pandemic would result in much lower sales, and reduced their component orders accordingly. When auto sales stayed stronger than expected, they were forced to buy those parts on the open market - reducing the number available to other customers. 2)…

Autos manufacturers assembled 1000 parts in China and call it 1 chip for import quota purposes. There was no “chip” shortage. There was an assembly labor shortage in China, a real shortage, cause by the disruption of the pandemic.

> There was no “chip” shortage.

Where are you getting that idea? There was absolutely a chip shortage! A lot of electronic components which were readily available before 2020 became unavailable or prohibitively expensive, and stayed that way for as long as a year or two afterwards.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#236

Post by kwhitefoot »

tstrimple wrote: post #138
kwhitefoot wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for you. That doesn't change the impression that many of us have when we see relatives and friends who buy Apple products yet have low incomes. I'm pretty confident they aren't doing it because of any technical superiority and they certainly aren't doing it because the devices last since they upgrade every couple of years. > integrate so much better Integrate with what?

> That doesn't change the impression that many of us have when we see relatives and friends who buy Apple products yet have low incomes. Congrats on being judgmental without even trying to understand anyone else’s perspective I guess.

I've tried hard to understand their perspective and I've had to conclude that there perspective does not include the technical superiority of the devices but is driven mostly by a wish to seen to be part of the IPhone owning group.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#237

Post by windexh8er »

Kirby64 wrote: post #148
windexh8er wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just TSMC chips. Apple forces other chip manufacturers into exclusive deals to lock out the ability for 3rd party repair to be done cost effectively and reliably. Apple shouldn't be able to control the chip markets as they do. As indicated in the article they create slave labor conditions in a lot of these manufacturers because they're wholly dependent on Apple's whims. This also creates an e-waste problem g…

There’s no “forcing” chip manufacturers into exclusivity deals. Chip vendors want the business, and Apple wants stuff customized for them. Plenty of IP that can be used in general market parts, too. Also, I can guarantee you that there’s a good amount of vendors that would rather not be forced to offer their chips that they provide to Apple on the general market.

> There’s no “forcing” chip manufacturers into exclusivity deals.

I'm not sure there's a fundamental understanding of how large businesses are changing their approach to supply chain in the name of competition with this statement.

The choice of these manufacturers is either take the volume order from Apple at lower margins and with stipulations or deal with market volatility. It's the stipulations aspect of what Apple is doing that is anti-competitive and generally horrible for consumers. Do you happen to work for Apple? Seems to be a very Apple-apologetic post for no good reason.

> Also, I can guarantee you that there’s a good amount of vendors that would rather not be forced to offer their chips that they provide to Apple on the general market.

OK. I'll take you up on that guarantee. Feel free to reply with reputable sources on the matter.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#238

Post by Kirby64 »

windexh8er wrote: post #237
Kirby64 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no “forcing” chip manufacturers into exclusivity deals. Chip vendors want the business, and Apple wants stuff customized for them. Plenty of IP that can be used in general market parts, too. Also, I can guarantee you that there’s a good amount of vendors that would rather not be forced to offer their chips that they provide to Apple on the general market.

> There’s no “forcing” chip manufacturers into exclusivity deals. I'm not sure there's a fundamental understanding of how large businesses are changing their approach to supply chain in the name of competition with this statement. The choice of these manufacturers is either take the volume order from Apple at lower margins and with stipulations or deal with market volatility. It's the stipulations aspect of what Appl…

> The choice of these manufacturers is either take the volume order from Apple at lower margins and with stipulations or deal with market volatility. It's the stipulations aspect of what Apple is doing that is anti-competitive and generally horrible for consumers. Do you happen to work for Apple? Seems to be a very Apple-apologetic post for no good reason.

I don't, I just work in the industry. These aren't an either-or decision on Apple or not Apple products. IP from developments on Apple-exclusive stuff is used elsewhere. Look at TI's USB-C port controllers as an example used in Macbooks. They have a custom one for Apple, but you can buy their general market parts online just fine. It's not like Apple is preventing TI from selling USB-C controllers.

> OK. I'll take you up on that guarantee. Feel free to reply with reputable sources on the matter.

You won't find 'published sources' on this. You'd need to have a fundamental understanding of semiconductor industry. Support for general market customers is HARD. They tend to be particularly needy, especially compared to the return on investment. If your organization is designed around helping large customers (not just Apple, but any large customer) then you just do not have the appropriate business structure in terms of sales, distribution, etc, to manage that. Companies like TI/NXP/ST have that infrastructure, but there's plenty of smaller companies that just do not really support small customers.

I get that repair shops 'just want to buy the chip', but that's really not what making parts available on the market means. It means fielding questions, publishing datasheets, having FAE/sales support, having distribution channels, etc, which all adds to cost for very little ROI. Repair shops are basically a rounding error in terms of buying power compared to a Samsung, Apple, etc.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#239

Post by dickersnoodle »

EarlKing wrote: post #76
joatmon-snoo wrote: post #33

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Sure, Apple offshoring their semiconductor mfg compounded the US' lack of domestic semiconductor mfg capacity/expertise. Apple also did that because it is a _business_, and has not always been the behemoth it is today. They went overseas because it made more sense, not because they had some anti-American goal of crippling US mfg capabilities. The AELP is, ideologically, a anti-big-co instit…

Yeah, it made sense to management looking to increase shareholder value. OTOH, since Apple isn't competing on price, they didn't have to do that. So everything that has ever, or will ever, go wrong with their devices is an entirely self-inflicted wound, and anyone who buys their products gets exactly what they deserve for buying from a company that cares more about profits than the people.

>a company that cares more about profits than the people.

Now you're on the hook for showing us a company that cares more about people than profits... and I mean actually cares where it counts, in budget and headcount and not just in gauzy HR propaganda.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#240

Post by windexh8er »

Kirby64 wrote: post #238
windexh8er wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no “forcing” chip manufacturers into exclusivity deals. I'm not sure there's a fundamental understanding of how large businesses are changing their approach to supply chain in the name of competition with this statement. The choice of these manufacturers is either take the volume order from Apple at lower margins and with stipulations or deal with market volatility. It's the stipulations aspect of what Appl…

> The choice of these manufacturers is either take the volume order from Apple at lower margins and with stipulations or deal with market volatility. It's the stipulations aspect of what Apple is doing that is anti-competitive and generally horrible for consumers. Do you happen to work for Apple? Seems to be a very Apple-apologetic post for no good reason. I don't, I just work in the industry. These aren't an either-…

> I get that repair shops 'just want to buy the chip', but that's really not what making parts available on the market means.

This is where your argument breaks down at the fundamental level because this is flat out incorrect. Organizations like Digikey, and many others, do exactly this. They've been around a long time and they cater to low volume buyers at reasonable margins.

Unfortunately your argument seems rooted in missing fundamentals and conveniently are ignoring entire market segments to bolster your argument that Apple isn't in the wrong here. They are. And what they're doing is anti-competitive.

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