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Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

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Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#231

Post by rascul »

anigbrowl wrote: post #200
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> should Why do you believe this should be the case? Keep in mind the majority opinion of most forms of racing and other competitions is to reward competitors for their qualifying or heat performances by assigning the most valuable starting positions to the top qualifiers. This is generally considered more fair than randomizing the final’s lane assignment (or grid order, etc) because it reduces the chance of BS in th…

I get it with motor racing like F1 because of the linear nature of the track, plus during the qualification laps they have a clear track and are not jockeying for position. My reservation with swimming is that if you were randomly assigned to a middle or side lane in the qualification stages, your advantage or disadvantage is compounded as the competition proceeds. It's not clear to me how lane assignments are conduc…

> I get it with motor racing like F1 because of the linear nature of the track, plus during the qualification laps they have a clear track and are not jockeying for position.

Track conditions can change throughout qualifying so that the later qualifiers might have a slightly faster or slower track.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#233

Post by bonestamp2 »

madaxe_again wrote: post #106
samldev wrote: post #5

I was a college swimmer, qualified for Olympic Trials in 2012 and 2016. There are absolutely slow and fast pools. It basically comes down to two things: 1. The depth - which is only 7ft in Paris, unusually shallow for a competition pool. 2. The sides. Does the water spill over the sides into the gutters, or smash into a wall and bounce back, creating more chop. A trained eye can see all the swimmers in Paris struggli…

I actually did a fairly lengthy research project on pretty much exactly this as a physics undergraduate - I wasn’t looking at swimming specifically, but rather boundary separation and Reynolds number in an open channel of varying depth. The setup was simple - a constant head vessel to provide a constant but adjustable flow of water in from one end, and a little plastic boat sat in the middle of the channel, attached…

Is there a formula to calculate the ideal depth at which going any deeper results in diminishing returns? In other words, how deep should future competitive swimming pools be built to provide the most world record opportunities (and perhaps more excitement for spectators due to increased world records)?

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#234

Post by aldonius »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #171
beAbU wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pool is a temporary structure, La Defence is a multi purpose venue. The pool is literally a tub on top of a rugby field. Perhaps this is why its shallower than normal.

All major competitions will be in temporary pools from now on. It’s a major spectator sport with growing popularity, but as seen in 2008, 2012, 2016, etc purpose-built facilities for that crowd size are failures. Paris is swimming in a rugby stadium. It is loud and exciting. The US trials this year were in a temporary pool at the NFL stadium in Indianapolis with 60,000 seats filled! LA 2028 has already announced that…

> Brisbane 2032

The current plan is a temporary pool in a new inner-city arena (15k seats) for the major swimming events, with diving, artistic swim and water polo prelims at an existing (to be refurbished) sports centre.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#235

Post by glitcher »

jjulius wrote: post #169

This is entirely just my own opinion... I completely understand why you might not want a slow pool in a competition like this, but the emphasis on it being "not ideal for record setting" is weird to me. I guess I just don't understand the constant quest to set better and better records. Do we really always need to be hitting new world records? What's the point of that, why does that need to be a thing? If records lik…

Setting a new world record is part of making history, and many are not broken at every Olympics. Consider this example - the men's 100m sprint world record was last broken by Usain Bolt 15 years ago! Now if you're not into that particular sport then maybe that doesn't mean much to you, fair enough. But wow, when someone comes along who is able to break that record it will really be something special.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#236

Post by nl »

LargeWu wrote: post #187
conductr wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My untrained eye has noticed. But I also think it's not really a big deal. There are so few events where the conditions are exactly the same every 4 years. Just kinda the luck of the draw if you happen to be competing in the most ideal conditions for WR setting in any event

Additionally, anybody good enough to be prevented from setting a world record because of this pool will undoubtedly have multiple chances in other competitions with faster pools.

This isn't really the case. You need a fast pool and good competition.

The Titmus vs Sanders vs Ledecky 400m could have been a world record race in another pool, but there's a pretty good chance we'll never see the three of them race each other again.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#237

Post by aqfamnzc »

teractiveodular wrote: post #179
kergonath wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the important bit is fairness for all competitors. As the OP said, the same conditions affect everybody. I have little sympathy for the (few) swimmers complaining. They are not owed a world record and if they’re that good, they’re going to get one anyway.

Wouldn't the sides affect swimmers on the edge lanes next to them more? And is this one reason why the strongest swimmers are usually placed in the center lanes?

Given the other comments I must be missing something, but wouldn't it be pretty much fair? The end swimmer gets one real neighbor and one simulated (reflection) neighbor from the wall. The middle folks have two real neighbors creating chop.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#238

Post by EternalFury »

knodi123 wrote: post #189
EternalFury wrote: post #184

World records don’t matter in the Olympics. Medals go to those who show up and prevail.

World records matter on their own, as long as the measurement is trustworthy. The way we know this matters at the Olympics, is that world records are being tracked and discussed at the Olympics. But you're right, they don't affect medals.

My point is that it’s not the spirit of the games. Ancient Greeks didn’t even keep a record of any metrics. Back then, there was no assumption that “modern” competitors should exceed the performance of those who competed decades or centuries before.

This type of focus leads to unhealthy expectations and doping in my opinion.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#239

Post by thaumasiotes »

conductr wrote: post #153
samldev wrote: post #5

I was a college swimmer, qualified for Olympic Trials in 2012 and 2016. There are absolutely slow and fast pools. It basically comes down to two things: 1. The depth - which is only 7ft in Paris, unusually shallow for a competition pool. 2. The sides. Does the water spill over the sides into the gutters, or smash into a wall and bounce back, creating more chop. A trained eye can see all the swimmers in Paris struggli…

My untrained eye has noticed. But I also think it's not really a big deal. There are so few events where the conditions are exactly the same every 4 years. Just kinda the luck of the draw if you happen to be competing in the most ideal conditions for WR setting in any event

> There are so few events where the conditions are exactly the same every 4 years.

The Olympics used to be held at Olympia. It's not difficult to make the conditions the same every four years.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#240

Post by kolja005 »

Paddywack wrote: post #206

Years ago Johannesburg put in an Olympic bid. Because of the high altitude (1753m) they had issues affecting a number of disciplines when it came to records due to the thinner air... If I recall correctly: - Javeline would go further (less air resistance) - High cardio events would go slower (less oxygen for athletes) That would have been a "slow pool" factor all things being equal!

You might find it interesting to know that for track cycling the penalty due to lower oxygen uptake is less than the advantage due to less air resistance. In other words track cyclists, at least in some of the longer disciplines, will go faster at higher altitudes despite there being less air to breathe.
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