Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

web.stanford.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 271 posts

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#231

Post by krrrh »

jhbadger wrote: post #213
_yb2s wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way has it been “dumbed down?” I use modern MacOS as a Unix software development workstation and it works great- nothing substantial has changed in 20 years other than better package managers. I suppose they did remove X11 but it’s trivial to install yourself.

With each new version it has become increasingly hostile to installing new software, particularly open-source software that hasn't been "signed" by a commercial developer, throwing up huge warning windows suggesting that anyone daring to run such stuff is taking a huge risk. And many of the standard UNIX locations have become locked down making it impossible to install stuff there. It's clear that Apple would like to…

I don’t understand this sort of comment. The warning windows aren’t “huge”. In practice is clicking through the dialog any more cumbersome than typing sudo and entering your password? In reality is the dialog any less appropriate for the average Linux desktop user?

Is locking down the System folder any more problematic than app armor, and any less useful for system integrity? Putting everything from brew under /opt follows UNIX conventions perfectly fine, definitely more than using snaps in Ubuntu for basic command line utilities. And installing whatever you want on macOS is just as easy as it is on Ubuntu.

This sort of complaint just gets so boring and detached from reality, and I’m not saying that you don’t use macOS but it reads like something from someone who couldn’t possibly be using it day-to-day. For me it’s a great compromise in terms of creating an operating system where I can do anything that I would do in Linux with just as much ease if not more, but also not have to provide tech support on for my elderly parents.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#232

Post by Animats »

psd1 wrote: post #208
Animats wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

systemd! (Currently struggling with the way systemd inserts itself into the DNS query chain and then botches things.)

It likes to fall over to the secondary server, doesn't it.

There are so many known systemd-resolved bugs [1][2] that I can't tell which one was breaking both of my simple Ubuntu desktop machines. Systemd-resolved sets itself up as the sole DNS resolver and then randomly reports it can't reach any DNS servers.

[1] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3A...

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/18kh1r5/im_shocked_t...

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#233

Post by kjkjadksj »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #97

One major advantage of the CLI is that instructions/fixes etc are very concise and can be easily communicated. If someone has a Linux system that needs a known fix, then it's trivial to send someone the commands to copy/paste into a terminal. However, if there's a known fix for a graphical program, then it suddenly becomes much harder to communicate - do you go for a textual instruction (e.g. click on the hamburger m…

Not only is it good for sharing but for automating functions in script. Imagine managing an IT environment where you have to click around the gui for each and every workstation, versus what these IT professionals actually do which is write a configuration script that does all their setup functions, which they can push to all networked workstations from their office with a single keystroke.

To do that in a gui-centric fashion, the only tools we actually have are textual commands that direct gui action. essentially its a middleman step: if we are already writing our applescript lets say, we might as well just abrogate the actual commands that our applescript is trying to abrogate through the gui system.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#234

Post by kjkjadksj »

wmf wrote: post #176
limit499karma wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to deny the possibility of equivalence of any sequence of actions taken in a bounded spaces of entities (named widgets thus type:id) and actions to another 'representation' (e.g. text): { select[i]@dropdown:states > click@button:submit } The fact that we don't have this (yet) does not mean it is not possible. In fact, given that the current darling of tech LLMs can 'compute visually' based on tokens (text)…

MacOS kind of had this with AppleScript, including recording. It's a little disappointing that it isn't widespread now but I realize that demand for GUI automation is extremely niche.

Applescript is so clunky and annoying. I have a few applescript launcd functions on my mac for some personal projects, and only because apple forces you to go through stuff like applescript to use stuff like the system notifications. It was a pain as the documentation is just so very poor for applescript, so clearly neglected by anyone at apple even when they built the tool; its not like good documentation only came about in recent years in programming. Then again most of what apple documents is crap. The launchd documentation isn't any better and I get undefined behavior I can't make head or tail of from it (basically functions working fine when ran as a user but failing silently when the same functions are ran through launchd), I'm guessing from some permissions related issue between launchd running as a certain privileged process and maybe the limits of their system integrity protection, I can't be sure because the documentation is so poor. And what is even worse is that there aren't many people using tools like launchd, at least not nearly compared to people who use systemd, so the various stackoverflow or blog posts you could look for reason in these more popular tools are not there for the apple tooling.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#235

Post by TylerE »

jthoward64 wrote: post #175
layer8 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another point of view is that macOS is great, but all ideas that make it great come from 20 years ago, and have died at the company since then. This also applies to Windows, by the way (except it’s more like 20-30 years ago).

Whereas Linux never stopped coming up with new ideas, but doesn't have the manpower to implement them

Which is why I gave up on it. Was tired of something in my workflow breaking every 6 weeks because “ooh shiny”

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#236

Post by sillywalk »

wmf wrote: post #176
limit499karma wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to deny the possibility of equivalence of any sequence of actions taken in a bounded spaces of entities (named widgets thus type:id) and actions to another 'representation' (e.g. text): { select[i]@dropdown:states > click@button:submit } The fact that we don't have this (yet) does not mean it is not possible. In fact, given that the current darling of tech LLMs can 'compute visually' based on tokens (text)…

MacOS kind of had this with AppleScript, including recording. It's a little disappointing that it isn't widespread now but I realize that demand for GUI automation is extremely niche.

Both Applescript and Automater are still around, and still provide recording.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#237

Post by SllX »

fake-name wrote: post #169
_yb2s wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way has it been “dumbed down?” I use modern MacOS as a Unix software development workstation and it works great- nothing substantial has changed in 20 years other than better package managers. I suppose they did remove X11 but it’s trivial to install yourself.

OS X started going down hill as soon as they replaces spaces and expose with mission control.

Consolidating Spaces and Exposé is not one of the things they did that hurt Mac OS X.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#238

Post by SllX »

Phiwise_ wrote: post #85
GrumpyYoungMan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Neal Stephenson acknowledged it was obsolete in 2004: " I embraced OS X as soon as it was available and have never looked back. So a lot of 'In the beginning was the command line' is now obsolete. I keep meaning to update it, but if I'm honest with myself, I have to say this is unlikely. " https://slashdot.org/story/04/10/20/1518217/neal-stephenson-... But people still dredge this quarter century old apocrypha up…

"Obsolete" is too strong a word, I think. OSX isn't an evolution of the Macintosh's operating system; That'd be Pink, which was even mentioned, and it crashed and burned. OSX was far closer to a Linux box and a Mac box on the same desk, therefore the only change really needed is to replace mentions of Unix or specifically Linux with Linux/OSX as far as the points of the piece are concerned. If Jobs had paid Torvalds…

Linux is not just another word for Unix or Unix-like and Mac OS X/macOS has never used nor shipped with the Linux kernel.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#239

Post by jhbadger »

krrrh wrote: post #231
jhbadger wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With each new version it has become increasingly hostile to installing new software, particularly open-source software that hasn't been "signed" by a commercial developer, throwing up huge warning windows suggesting that anyone daring to run such stuff is taking a huge risk. And many of the standard UNIX locations have become locked down making it impossible to install stuff there. It's clear that Apple would like to…

I don’t understand this sort of comment. The warning windows aren’t “huge”. In practice is clicking through the dialog any more cumbersome than typing sudo and entering your password? In reality is the dialog any less appropriate for the average Linux desktop user? Is locking down the System folder any more problematic than app armor, and any less useful for system integrity? Putting everything from brew under /opt f…

I wouldn't mind in the least if it was a matter of using sudo. That's a logical elevation of privileges. MacOS already does this at points, asking you for your password (which if you are an administrator is basically running sudo for you). These warning messages and locking down the /usr hierarchy (even with sudo) are different as they aren't asking for more access but merely to spread FUD about open access software (yes, you can use brew if the program you want is in it, but that is just adding another garden even if less walled, and it works because someone in the Homebrew project is signing the binaries).

I have used UNIX/Linux on a daily basis for over 30 years, and OSX/MacOS daily for over 15 years. I know how UNIX systems work and where things traditionally are located. And until a few years ago MacOS was a reasonable UNIX that could be used more or less like a friendly UNIX system -- but it is becoming increasingly less so.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#240

Post by fragmede »

krrrh wrote: post #231
jhbadger wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With each new version it has become increasingly hostile to installing new software, particularly open-source software that hasn't been "signed" by a commercial developer, throwing up huge warning windows suggesting that anyone daring to run such stuff is taking a huge risk. And many of the standard UNIX locations have become locked down making it impossible to install stuff there. It's clear that Apple would like to…

I don’t understand this sort of comment. The warning windows aren’t “huge”. In practice is clicking through the dialog any more cumbersome than typing sudo and entering your password? In reality is the dialog any less appropriate for the average Linux desktop user? Is locking down the System folder any more problematic than app armor, and any less useful for system integrity? Putting everything from brew under /opt f…

having to go into the terminal to run chattr in order to remove the quarantine bit is a lot to ask of a non technical user.
Post reply on HN