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Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

nytimes.com

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Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#231

Post by ein0p »

lazide wrote: post #167
ein0p wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if we are to address this problem we have to identify the primary cause.

What if there is no ‘primary cause’ that can be fixed, while still solving the underlying need the country seems to have - which is ‘have a large standing group of highly trained, extremely focused, non-conformist, insanely competitive, and professional killers ready at a moments notice’? It’s not like the mere fact of creating/concentrating the population of the folks willing to be this doesn’t also create a whole s…

What if there is a primary cause, and brain trauma is not it? Seems pretty likely that the issue is psychological in nature, otherwise contact combat sports and eg rugby/football would show similar incidence of suicide. I can see how after a couple of years of high intensity combat civilian life would feel like a complete waste of time and a road to nowhere.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#233

Post by Earw0rm »

mschuster91 wrote: post #224
cjbgkagh wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shell shock was considered related to neurasthenia (weak nerves) which is the 18th century name for ME/CFS. TBI, ME/CFS and PTSD are highly correlated for what I believe are the same genetic predisposition plus an environmental trigger.

ME/CFS can also be triggered by viruses. Epstein-Barr virus and SARS-CoV-2 both are suspected triggers.

And the huge population movements, cramming exhausted people together in dense and often unsanitary conditions, characteristic of 20th century warfare are ideal conditions for.. guess what?

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#234

Post by midjji »

DaoVeles wrote: post #88
mathsmath wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends on the shockwave. Maybe someone can math it out, but it’s like the sound leaf blower makes vs standing right next to a jet engine. I have never seen a shockwave on the ground behind a “normal” firearm, but it seems commonplace with artillery.

The question is if there is a cumulative effect from the smaller shock waves or if there is a threshold that needs to be exceeded to cause issues.

My bet is on a high threshold. There is no evidence for this at all in small arms enthusiasts.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#235

Post by lukan »

exe34 wrote: post #204
lukan wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If we sent troops to Ukraine, Russia would be out within weeks, and we’d have less casualties than Iraq and Afghanistan, assuming Putin didn’t start nuking." Big assumption. Other options are also North Korea sending troops. Or Iran. Or while the US engages there, China uses the opportunity to take Taiwan. Geopolitics is complicated. No one wants a nuclear war, but at some point there is no more rationality, when a…

the US can fight three peer wars at the same time. that's their military doctrine.

I really do not want to see how all of this plays out, but I believe China has also quite some manpower and their military capabilities are not exactly known. The outcome will likely depend, how the rest of the world reacts. And if there are nukes.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#236

Post by enugu »

vasco wrote: post #188
shkkmo wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a problem has multiple causes, only addressing one of them seem like a mistake.

That's the destructive wasteful thinking of "every little bit helps". 80/20 can be applied to almost everything and looking at the second top factor of anything is a waste of time until you properly looked at the first and can't do anymore.

In a multi-stage process, even if you fix the cause with 80% responsibility, the outcome may not improve by much, as there is failure now at another stage. Of course, fixing that single cause is still progress.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#237

Post by nottorp »

financltravsty wrote: post #127
magicalhippo wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm into sports shooting, and during winter our club has an indoor range that used to be an old bunker. So we're in this 25 foot by 60 foot concrete tunnel, that's about 8 feet tall at most. Not a giant cavern by any means. And closed doors, so just (forced) ventilation open to the outside. I've shot .357 magnum and shotguns in there. It's loud, yes. I wear ear plugs and ear muffs when doing that. But not by any mean…

An interesting thought popped off in my head: what if it does, and the crowd that leans heavily into enthusiast firearm usage is giving themselves micro-TBIs -- could that over the years create certain changes in personality and psychological workings that lead to certain, similar outcomes? E.g. could it be correlated with political affiliation? Don't read into it too much, though. This isn't snark or passive aggress…

One may also try to correlate this with the rate of violent crime in first world countries...

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#238

Post by midjji »

Bjorkbat wrote: post #54
jrmg wrote: post #46

Artillery crew members who fired thousands of rounds in combat came home plagued by hallucinations and psychosis Could this problem also be affecting civilian gun enthusiasts? Or is the order of magnitude of the exposure just wildly lower compared to the military, even in the most enthusiastic?

I used to shoot competitively. We always wore ear protection. Even without it though, I would imagine there's a huge difference between an artillery shell and a .45 round.

A .45 gunshot feels like a sound, and with hearing protections at a few meters you hear it but cant feel it in the slightest. You feel it in your hand but not further. Artillery is more similar to how it feels standing next to gigantic speakers at a concert, even with hearing protections you feel it throughout your entire body, except sharper.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#239

Post by jillesvangurp »

seventytwo wrote: post #154
joegibbs wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting that at the time, in WW1, it was assumed to be a physical injury to the brain caused by the shockwave of exploding artillery shells (hence the name). A few years later a consensus evolved that it's a psychological problem caused by the stress of combat, which was the prevailing opinion for about 100 years. And now it's looking like it might actually be a physical injury caused by shockwave damage t…

It’s not either/or. The psychological shit is real, but the physical damage to the brain is real also. Both things are true.

A lot of the medication for psychological issues is aimed at altering the bio chemistry in the brain to mitigate physical problems. The reason that stuff works is because the issues are physical and not imagined. It's also true that certain disorders (e.g. psychosis) actually cause brain damage when left unchecked. This technically is not a single thing but more like a group of disorders with widely varying symptoms. My understanding is that a lot of PTSD complaints overlap in terms of symptoms and are probably related. Or that some PTSD patients actually become psychotic.

So not surprising to see some brain damage in navy seals. Of course the question is what comes first, the brain damage or the ptsd. And whether something can be done before brain damage happens in terms of medication or therapy.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#240

Post by jrflowers »

zaptrem wrote: post #76
jrflowers wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Can you sustain brain damage by being exposed to a smaller amount of concussive force?” “Great question, did you know if you zig and zag you become impervious to bullet :)”

I interpreted it as “there’s such a big difference between artillery and a handgun you clearly have never been around an actual gun being fired before” Still snarky, but there is a point.

What did GP say about brain damage at all? Downthread he mentions people shooting 9mm pistols with hearing protection and navy SEALS as if they are the only two groups while not mentioning brain damage at all.

Aside from the cavalier “I know something you don’t” there was nothing of any value posted.

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