Live data from Hacker News

FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

nytimes.com

231–240 of 267 posts

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines are almost "lucky" in the sense that when they mess up training and processes, people die. As a result, they are somewhat motivated to fix it. In other industries, we say "that didn't work, VCs, can I have another $2M" and are just told "yup, of course!" As a result, we learn slow. Personally, I stole checklists from aviation and love it. I remember one week I was on vacation and we needed to do a complicate…

Plus one for checklists. Checklists are secret sauce

We call them procedures, if you don’t have written step by step procedures with rollback steps, you are not supposed to do any production stuff

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines have figured out that people suck at multitasking.

Airlines are almost "lucky" in the sense that when they mess up training and processes, people die. As a result, they are somewhat motivated to fix it. In other industries, we say "that didn't work, VCs, can I have another $2M" and are just told "yup, of course!" As a result, we learn slow. Personally, I stole checklists from aviation and love it. I remember one week I was on vacation and we needed to do a complicate…

What do you use to create, update, and recall your checklists?

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#233
post #36

A famous crash caused by a hidden defect in titanium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232 The accident wasn't total only because of magnificent actions of the flight crew.

My favorite bit Sioux City Approach: "United Two Thirty-Two Heavy, the wind's currently three six zero at one one; three sixty at eleven. You're cleared to land on any runway." Haynes: "[laughter] Roger. [laughter] You want to be particular and make it a runway, huh?"

Pilots need to be calm under high pressure, because they know that panic means certain death. I suspect that selects for a certain type of personality who can make light of any situation.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#234

NASA had issues with falsified tests of aluminium not long ago[1], reportedly costing them $700 million in losses[2]. Though buying from a relatively little known Chinese vendor without thorough testing on your own seems a bit reckless. [1]: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/aluminum-extrusion-manufactur... [2]: https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-nasa-metals-fraud-201...

We need to buy cheap. Testing is expensive EBIT _must_ grow.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#235
post #36

A famous crash caused by a hidden defect in titanium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232 The accident wasn't total only because of magnificent actions of the flight crew.

To belabor the point and repeat a bit from Wikipedia, this was bar-none the absolute perfect flight crew possible. A flight crew with over 65000 hours experience and, riding as a passenger, a training pilot with a further 23000 who had specifically practiced this exact failure (total loss of hydraulics) after a lost craft four years prior. For further reading, https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/fields-of-fortune-the…

Fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing this. Good read.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines are almost "lucky" in the sense that when they mess up training and processes, people die. As a result, they are somewhat motivated to fix it. In other industries, we say "that didn't work, VCs, can I have another $2M" and are just told "yup, of course!" As a result, we learn slow. Personally, I stole checklists from aviation and love it. I remember one week I was on vacation and we needed to do a complicate…

What do you use to create, update, and recall your checklists?

I used ... Google Docs.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#237
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Poor design leading to the loss of all flight control surfaces in the event of an uncontained engine failure is what led to their deaths.

I said the root cause. There is always more than one factor in an air accident. But if the ingot hadn't had an inclusion, none of the other factors would've mattered.

A bit offtopic. Nitpick regarding definition of “root cause”.

Let’s say there are two conditions X and Y. Neither sole-X nor lonesome-Y, cause the disaster, but when X+Y happen together, they produce a very negative outcome.

It would seem that both are equally “root” of the cause. But human brain desires to declare one as primary.

In situation where disaster was “human died”, with conditions X=“bullet was shot at the human”, Y=“humans are squishy”, we naturally would lean towards X being the root cause, while Y would be treated as ”that’s just the way it is”.

On the other hand we could construct ”human died” situation with reverse root cause assignment, ie. X=“bullet was shot at human” is taken as a constant, while root cause is Y=“ humans are squishy” (employing some grotesque reader can construct a better one, but something like “The journalist should have followed the process and used a bulletproof vest. It is a war zone after all” seem to work)

“Root case” usually is the smallest and most easily changable part of situation that can prevent disaster.

Though the “ease of change” is not fixed. (“People must follow process” vs “invest milions to change process”)

I just wanted to ramble a bit on the concept of “root cause”. To highlight that on precision-of-terminology-spectrum that spans between mathemathics and astrology, “root cause” falls somewhere in the middle. (probably bit to the right of engineering)

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#238
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I show you a lump of metal and I tell you it is titanium how do you know I am not lying?

Inspections for aerospace parts are, in theory, a bit more involved than just 'looking at it.'

Yeah. They look at it very close. And they have sensors to look at it automatically. And they also look at the paperwork.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#239
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, this one seems to pass at least some testing even despite the phony documentation. This seems to be about this titan: «Boeing and Airbus both said their tests of affected materials so far had shown no signs of problems.» I read this as implying that Airbus has been buying other things from the same source and done its own tests on samples: «“Numerous tests have been performed on parts coming from the sa…

You can't really test. The tests you can do don't actually tell you what you really need to know. You can't prove the material is good, you can only trust that the material is good, and 50 years later observe how it held up. You can't find out the distribution of the alloy ingredients, or detect voids, or crystal structures, or traces of other elements, except by sawing the part in half and looking at the cut surface…

voids and crystal structures can be detected by x-rays and routinely are. you're right that the precise composition of the interior can't be, but the precise composition of the surface can be (spark spectroscopy or xrf, also both routine), and the suspicion is not that spirit made fake parts and thinly plated them with the correct metal; it's that they got fake metal. so i don't think any sawing will be needed

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#240
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't really test. The tests you can do don't actually tell you what you really need to know. You can't prove the material is good, you can only trust that the material is good, and 50 years later observe how it held up. You can't find out the distribution of the alloy ingredients, or detect voids, or crystal structures, or traces of other elements, except by sawing the part in half and looking at the cut surface…

voids and crystal structures can be detected by x-rays and routinely are. you're right that the precise composition of the interior can't be, but the precise composition of the surface can be (spark spectroscopy or xrf, also both routine), and the suspicion is not that spirit made fake parts and thinly plated them with the correct metal; it's that they got fake metal. so i don't think any sawing will be needed

You can only detect gross structures with xrays. It cannot tell you that a material will not be more likely to fail early due to included contaminants, or lack of, or grain structure etc.

By interior composition and distribution I'm not talking about anything as comically stupid as plating like the inside is aluminum.

The surface of a finished part is routinely intentionally quite different from the interior, ie spin casting and case hardening etc. Frequently the performance of the part actually requires that the interior be different from the surface, ie hard shell resilient interior.

You can observe a lot about a finished part in various ways, like just tapping it and observing the sound can be more useful than an xray. But there's a lot you can not know after the fact through observation, except by observation of the eventual failure or not.

For one example, dissimilar materials, either within a casting or even just 2 parts in contact with each other, or a part and a brazing material, can migrate and diffuse into each other over time. Small differences in the initial conditions change how that develops over time, and can result in big changes in the performance of a part later.

You can't examine a finished part to determine that it was fabricated according to the recipe. You can only detect gross problems. You must trust that the supplier and their suppliers all followed the various recipes.

Here's another angle:

They first detected the forged paperwork because the guys on the factory floor observed that the material looked wrong.

So, it's the opposite of "you can't detect the difference". They detected a difference just plain visually.

The counterfeit parts might actually be perfectly sound. We don't know they will fail early, we only know that we can't trust the paperworks claims about how they were produced, where the materials were sourced from, how they were processed etc. Whatever the source and processes actually were, the end result might be inferior, or might be equivalent or even superior. (although detecting pitting they didn't expect does not lean towards the parts being superior)

They are able to observe that there is something different about these parts. They visually looked different enough to raise the question. Yet so far, they haven't been able to say that the parts are actually unsound through any testing or that initial visual observation.

It's not only that a part that looks perfect might not be, it's also true that even when you do detect a difference, it doesn't mean the part is bad.

You can observe a lot, but there is no amount of after-the-fact observation or testing that can replace knowledge of how a thing was produced.

Post reply on HN