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Noam Chomsky 'no longer able to talk' after 'medical event'

independent.co.uk

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Re: Noam Chomsky 'no longer able to talk' after 'medical event'

#231

Post by pydry »

_djo_ wrote: post #209
pydry wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was entirely right about that too. NATO is an aggressive alliance that has exclusively invaded three countries in the last 20 years, zero of whom were threat to it. The worst one was probably Libya, because NATO pretended to engage in a humanitarian mission to gain approval from the security council and then left the country utterly destroyed state afterwards. The country was shredded . It's a tool of western impe…

The invasion of Libya was fully authorised by the UNSC, and it was not conducted or approved solely by NATO. Libya was also already in a highly destructive civil war before the intervention, which is why it happened, so it’s not like they went in and destabilised a stable country. Gaddafi had built Libya’s security around himself in a cult of personality, things were always going to fall apart once his power waned. W…

>The invasion of Libya was fully authorised by the UNSC,

Yes as I pointed out.

As I pointed out that made it worse because they lied to the security. They simply wanted to take sides in a civil war.

Did you read what I wrote at all?

Re: Noam Chomsky 'no longer able to talk' after 'medical event'

#232

Post by karmakurtisaani »

ein0p wrote: post #78
hi-v-rocknroll wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was more-or-less a free-market, atheist libertarian until about age 16 because I didn't know any better and it seemed so righteous and freedom flag-waving. Then, I learned a few things decades since then (but kept the atheism), especially about the dark origins of libertarianism. The truth is that America is a neocolonial power that flirts authoritarianism where one can live an easy life if they're moderately rich,…

I’m starting to waver on atheism also. I’m not likely to start believing in god this far in my life, of course, but I now see why a lot of people feel the need to believe, and I no longer judge them for it. I do however judge religious organizations for shamelessly exploiting that need.

Perhaps I could sell you the idea of ignosticism: one cannot prove anything about any supernatural beings, so the whole question of existence of gods is meaningless, and can be therefore happily be ignored. Thus, all religious questions are resolved.

Even atheism is a strong stance and asserts a belief that you cannot test!

Re: Noam Chomsky 'no longer able to talk' after 'medical event'

#233

Post by feedforward »

cm2187 wrote: post #149
feedforward wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US began arming the "Khmer Rouge" (whatever that means) in 1979 as well as protecting them in the UN, so the equivalence seems pretty valid to me. Not to mention the US 1970 invasion of Cambodia and concurrent CIA-backed overthrow of the Cambodian government, which including shooting dead US students who protested against it at Kent State and Jackson State, or the US carpet bombing of Cambodia during and after Op…

1979 was after the genocide and after Pol Pot was pushed out of power. Implying the US had something to do with the killing fields defies common sense. The khmer rouges were primarily China and North Vietnam backed. Now the US did support some incompetent and corrupt militia in Cambodia to oppose the Khmer rouges, and those did their fair share of misdeeds, to the frustration of local US officers. But given the crime…

> The khmer rouges were primarily China and North Vietnam backed.

Vietnam invaded Cambodia in 1979 and China invaded Vietnam in 1979. What are you talking about?

Re: Noam Chomsky 'no longer able to talk' after 'medical event'

#234

Post by pydry »

_djo_ wrote: post #223
M2Ys4U wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO's intervention in Kosovo is the one that routinely cited. That wasn't defensive by any means, but that also doesn't make it unjustified nor should it really be called "aggressive". Chomsky, naturally, denied that ethnic cleansing was happening there because it wasn't the US or "western" countries doing it.

Agreed, Kosovo is the only actual NATO intervention of that sort. And agreed that it was neither unjustified nor ‘aggressive’.

[flagged]

Re: Noam Chomsky 'no longer able to talk' after 'medical event'

#235

Post by karmakurtisaani »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #228
collyw wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you believe that "vaccinations protect us against disease" is propaganda, I have very bad news about whatever information sources you've been following.

We're quite fortunate the internet wasn't a thing when polio was still around.

Re: Noam Chomsky 'no longer able to talk' after 'medical event'

#236

Post by pydry »

_djo_ wrote: post #225
jcranmer wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other NATO interventions: * Intervention in the violent breakup of Yugoslavia, invited to do so by the UN in response to the genocide going on there. * Invasion of Afghanistan, following the invocation of Article 5 after an attack on a NATO country (i.e., 9/11).

> * Intervention in the violent breakup of Yugoslavia, invited to do so by the UN in response to the genocide going on there. Indeed. So not an aggressive invasion but a humanitarian intervention. > * Invasion of Afghanistan, following the invocation of Article 5 after an attack on a NATO country (i.e., 9/11). Not quite. Technically speaking, neither of the official NATO missions in Afghanistan, ISAF and Resolute Sup…

The invasion of Afghanistan was as much self defence as the invasion of Ukraine. Probably less, actually.

The idea that it was any kind of self defence is kind of pathetic, and mirrors Putinesque propaganda. It was occupation pure and simple.

America really wanted to set up military bases there. It was a black spot in the world which it lacked imperial force projection and it was right between 3 major rivals (Russia, China and Iran).

Re: Noam Chomsky 'no longer able to talk' after 'medical event'

#237

Post by nashashmi »

grumple wrote: post #174
nashashmi wrote: post #37

[flagged]

[flagged]

Glad someone said it. Hamas is not a terrorist because they terrorize. Hamas is a terrorist because they are a threat to western govt and world order. Similarly south africa post apartheid was a threat to western world order.

Re: Noam Chomsky 'no longer able to talk' after 'medical event'

#238

Post by _djo_ »

roenxi wrote: post #214
_djo_ wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the alternative liberal internationalist view is that the preservation of imperial-like spheres of influence and ironclad regional hegemonies is unfair, u democratic, and at odds with the rules-based trade-oriented order we’d like to see the world continue to adopt. No country was forced to join NATO. In fact, it took years and years of lobbying from Eastern European countries before the first new members were al…

I don't disagree with any of that. But you didn't deal with the "why is their an active land war in Eastern Europe?" question; which is what Chomsky was picking at to get to the NATO expansion point. > Ironically, returning to a might-makes-right global order as envisioned by Russia would mean the United States could behave far worse in future The US could act much worse in the present if it wanted. Only China is rea…

> I don't disagree with any of that. But you didn't deal with the "why is there an active land war in Eastern Europe?" question; which is what Chomsky was picking at to get to the NATO expansion point.

Fair enough. To answer that, I’d say the actual trigger wasn’t NATO but the EU, and Ukraine wanting to join it and move out of Russia’s sphere of influence. This was coupled to a wave of new leadership who wanted a more western and central European alignment. That’s what the Maidan was all about, when Yanukovych unilaterally refused to sign the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement and brutally cracked down on the resulting protests.

That desire for closer ties with western and central Europe played out economically too, with the Ukrainian tech sector in particular being promoted as an outsourcing hub for European companies and holding conferences like Devoxx.

Russia invaded because it knew it either subjugated Ukraine now, while it was still relatively weak but growing fast, or it lost the opportunity altogether. And in Russian strategic thought the idea of not being able to control Ukraine, which they see as an integral part of Russia, is anathema.

> The reason the US often doesn't bother with a might-makes-right response is because it isn't effective, not because they're purposefully holding themselves back from useful options. It is more effective to have the rule based order where, famously, the US makes the rules and gives the orders.

On some level, sure, but as China’s rise has shown the rules based order does not prevent competitors from rising up and eventually eclipsing US power. While the rules based order allows the US to use economic coercion, it also allows China to do the same.

A might-makes-right approach can be effective, but it can also lead to world wars which are immensely destructive and which the US wants to avoid.

It’s not just the US though, the EU is similarly in favour of substituting diplomacy and trade for military power.

Re: Noam Chomsky 'no longer able to talk' after 'medical event'

#239

Post by _djo_ »

pydry wrote: post #234
_djo_ wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, Kosovo is the only actual NATO intervention of that sort. And agreed that it was neither unjustified nor ‘aggressive’.

[flagged]

See my other reply. In any case, that you can refer to these as ‘aggressive imperialist power plays’ shows you’re both not to be taken seriously and are not willing to engage in a good faith and informed discussion.

Re: Noam Chomsky 'no longer able to talk' after 'medical event'

#240

Post by foobarqux »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #229
foobarqux wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

There is unfortunately a staggering amount of evidence of genocide in Ukraine committed by russia. To suggest otherwise, or to suggest that russia is "acting with restraint and moderation" as Chomsky said, is tantamount to Holocaust denial. https://www.newstatesman.com/the-weekend-interview/2023/04/n...

[flagged]
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