Dear Europe, please wake up • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#231

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 9:09 PM UTC

guru4consulting wrote: post #224

mountainb wrote: post #145

The EU does not have an equivalent of US commerce clause jurisprudence (which descends from Hamilton's original economic design to prevent exactly the kinds of problems that this author is complaining about). The EU does have an equivalent to the supremacy clause, but due to cultural and political forces it cannot have the same effect that it has in the US. Another major factor that makes the US more competitive is o…

And make EU more like USA? let them be influenced by corrupted wall street, loose EPA regulations for pesticides, favor the rich in the name of capitalism? In spite of the flaws and messy bureaucracy, I still like EU for their policies towards environment, food, socialism, etc. And above all, EU is the single beacon of hope to keep a check on mega corps like Apple, Google, Meta, MS, etc.

[deleted]

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#232

Post by iteria » Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 9:09 PM UTC

iamacyborg wrote: post #24

marcinzm wrote: post #22

This misses the big one: California bans non-competes, bans anti-moonlighting clauses and lets you quit with no notice. If you’re at an EU company and need to give 3+ months notice to quit that will discourage starting your own company on the side.

The flipside is your company can't just fire you at will, which is rather nice in this day and age.

People always bring this up but in my 15 years of working in tech I've never seen anyone fired on the spot unless they really fuck up. Like cause the company serious financial or legal harm kind of fuck up. The tech layoffs get a lot of attention, but that's a tiny, tiny fraction of the US's tech labor pool and full of some of the most privileged employees of an already salary privileged set of workers.

In reality what happens is you get 3 months notice of a firing in the form of PIP. Perhaps if you work at Walmart you can get fired on the spot, but honestly in industries where this is a common occupance, it's also well known that the employees also just don't give any notice at all either. They just stop showing up, maybe won't even give a 1 second of notice.

Personally, I'm happy for at will as someone who has had a shitty. Shitty job that ate at my mental health. I just had to say "today is my last day" and I fucking left and that was that. Got a final pay check and paperwork for continuing my benefits if I wanted them and this was at a random company in a labor hostile state. In some place like California, they would have been required to pay my last paycheck that moment instead of when the never payment day was.

I've seen employees work contacts that mandate notices by punishing you with legally enforced fines and whatnot and I just cannot see the benefit of being forced to give notice. It's just encourages your employer to make your life hell in that period if you're on bad terms and you had a good reason for leaving.

Right to work laws can get bent though. That's active underminement of unions for no benefit at all for an employee.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#233

Post by buzzert » Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 9:10 PM UTC

guru4consulting wrote: post #224

mountainb wrote: post #145

The EU does not have an equivalent of US commerce clause jurisprudence (which descends from Hamilton's original economic design to prevent exactly the kinds of problems that this author is complaining about). The EU does have an equivalent to the supremacy clause, but due to cultural and political forces it cannot have the same effect that it has in the US. Another major factor that makes the US more competitive is o…

And make EU more like USA? let them be influenced by corrupted wall street, loose EPA regulations for pesticides, favor the rich in the name of capitalism? In spite of the flaws and messy bureaucracy, I still like EU for their policies towards environment, food, socialism, etc. And above all, EU is the single beacon of hope to keep a check on mega corps like Apple, Google, Meta, MS, etc.

I take it that you're very pleased with the direction that Europe is going, and disagree with most of what the author of the post says then?

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#234

Post by jltsiren » Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 9:11 PM UTC

cherryteastain wrote: post #193

Europeans always like to approach this issue from the perspective of Europe being uncompetitive vs the US. I'd say it's not Europe that is underperforming, rather the US has been over-performing since the 2008 GFC. If we look at other major developed countries (say Japan, S Korea, Canada, Austalia, New Zealand) they also lack the same innovation ecosystem the US has. Their economies have also been largely stagnating…

You should not make international comparisons using US dollars with 2008 as the baseline. 2008 was the year when the US dollar crashed. €1 was worth over $1.5 for about 5 months, which was well above the typical levels. Because of that, all the numbers will be nonsensical.

It's usually better to use the local currency and adjust for inflation. If I got the numbers right, the real GDP per capita of Canada grew ~14% from 2008 to 2022. That's less than the 18-19% for the US, but not that much less.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#235

Post by juxtapose » Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 9:12 PM UTC

flumpcakes wrote: post #128

photochemsyn wrote: post #103

Curiously China's very successful economic model - in which capital is more under state control than in private hands, but there's still a competetive market as industrial monopolies are discouraged - isn't brought up here - even though certain major European industrial sectors seem to be finding China more attractive these days, e.g. BASF; https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/basf-agrees-15-year-ga... Apparently th…

I think China is the workhouse and that's the source of it's power. Ultimately it's a dictatorship with imperial ambitions. It's blatantly using this power already to weaken democracies through IP theft and "overcapacity". It seems like some countries are becoming wary of China and are now moving production to other asian countries. I've seen a few interviews lately of Chinese workers complaining they are no longer e…

It seems you are very ideology-driven, but no, corporations are not moving production out of China because "China bad". It's just because labor costs in China have risen due to its fast development.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#236

Post by peoplefromibiza » Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 9:13 PM UTC

alephnerd wrote: post #230

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then why does Czechia, Romania, Poland And yet nobody would move there to find a job, not even from Italy, Greece or Portugal. Their salaries are simply too low and the ROI in terms of quality of life it's not remotely comparable. There's over one million Romanians in Italy, making them the largest foreign community in Italy.

And how many of them are working in Italy's tech industry versus working as blue collar workers.

How many of them are working in Romanian tech industry?

In EU the share of ICT workers is pretty much homogeneous among the different countries.

It's their salary that varies a lot (but not as wildly as in the US)

It's much easier to get a decent wage for a Romanian in Italy than for a Romanian tech worker in Romania

It's the reason why a lot of Italians go to live abroad as well.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#237

Post by 6510 » Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 9:17 PM UTC

I'm sure an insane number of companies in the EU operate only in one country. If you look over the border and see a tiny fraction of how different stuff works you run back home screaming.

You cant send a box into Germany. I'm sure I'm butchering the refined details but something like: You need to register with some approved entity who will sign off on the packaging you use with different rates for different volumes of which the first is 100 times what I need.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#238

Post by wrboyce » Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 9:18 PM UTC

triceratops wrote: post #221

mountainb wrote: post #145

The EU does not have an equivalent of US commerce clause jurisprudence (which descends from Hamilton's original economic design to prevent exactly the kinds of problems that this author is complaining about). The EU does have an equivalent to the supremacy clause, but due to cultural and political forces it cannot have the same effect that it has in the US. Another major factor that makes the US more competitive is o…

I found myself nodding at the first 2 paragraphs, then got serious whiplash on paragraph 3. That was wild.

Yeah, what the hell haha. How someone can think “I propose that 27 countries are absorbed into the USA” is reasonable is beyond my comprehension.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#239

Post by Dig1t » Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 9:20 PM UTC

Muromec wrote: post #154

Dig1t wrote: post #110

My company offers relocation from the US to Paris. The Paris office is beautiful, right near the Eiffel Tower. If I take the relocation I get an automatic 50% salary cut, and my tax bill goes way up. Not to mention VAT and other expenses. Seems like Europe’s problem with innovation is maybe related.

>If I take the relocation I get an automatic 50% salary cut It's obvious that cashflow will suffer. The question is whether you will like living in Paris on the money that's left. There is a good chance you would and will also discover where the hidden taxes of living in US were. Or not.

It’s vastly cheaper to live in the US, I talk to my Paris coworkers quite a lot and they pay more for just about everything except maybe childcare.

My health insurance is free in the US, covered by my employer, my tax rate is 35% whereas I would be taxed at 45% in Paris. Gas costs more in Paris, car registration and taxes cost more, just buying a car in the first place costs way more, not to mention the car I own is not even legal there so I’d not even be allowed to do the same types of activities. Forget taking my truck to the lake with the kayaks and forget hauling materials to build my house.

It just doesn’t make sense why any smart, capable person would choose to live in Europe unless they absolutely loved the culture.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#240

Post by ramblerman » Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 9:20 PM UTC

juxtapose wrote: post #227

The author isn't wrong. Europe is falling behind, and people should not pretend it's a good thing: the current European life style ("more to life than work") depends on excessive interests gained from technological advancements that are not yet replicated elsewhere. The life would be much worse if Europe couldn't keep up.

whoosh