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H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

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Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#231

Post by mattmaroon »

lm28469 wrote: post #54
mattmaroon wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just such a shame all 8 billion earthlings are so addicted to food!

We waste like 1/3rd of the food and half of the planet is overweight/obese, I think we could slow down a bit tbh

Could: sure. Will: no.

But even if we did, it would still be factory farming (though of course with fewer outbreaks and antibiotic resistance) with other things that people would find problematic for plenty of equally valid reasons.

Also if anything, obesity would skyrocket. Meat isn’t the big cause of that, carbs are, and if you cut out meat you get more carbs. Most people gain weight when they go vegetarian.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#232

Post by eadmund »

3l3ktr4 wrote: post #81

It's crazy to see people denying that (meat) factory farming is a problem. You'd expect most of the public of this website to be rationalists in one way or another. Of course factory farming is an aggravating factor for the spread of diseases. Of course we can thrive with less meat consumption or none. How is that even a question?

> Of course factory farming is an aggravating factor for the spread of diseases. Of course we can thrive with less meat consumption or none.

Of course, life with less meat consumption has a lower quality, and life with no meat consumption is utter misery.

Cities are an aggravating factor for the spread of disease, but I’d hardly argue that they should all be dissolved: the benefits are worth the costs. Likewise with meat. Eating meat fulfills one aspect of our natures as humans; a life without meat is thus a less humane life. No thanks.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#233

Post by bluGill »

ceejayoz wrote: post #196
bluGill wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spread is occurring. However you have given no reason to think factory farms are in any way at fault.

I don't think it's at all controversial that concentrated monoculture populations are more at risk of spreading infectious pathogens, and there's no evidence that these tests for H5N1 were performed on a bunch of artisanal raw milk producers.

Maybe it should be controversial. Of course there are lots of different ways to do things, but the old ways are not always better. There is a lot of researching into how to raise cows, and as romantic as the open range sounds, the reality isn't all the great for cows either. (little water at times, temperatures that are not comfortable)

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#235

Post by kelipso »

triceratops wrote: post #194
kelipso wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what goes really well with a juicy hamburger or a steak? Crisp fries, and a cool, refreshing, tall glass of Coke (maybe not the Coke so much with a steak), or a frosty milkshake. That's a disgusting fast-food derived dietary preference. Healthy meat-centric diet does not look anything like that.

That's precisely my point. There are healthy and unhealthy meat-centric diets. There are healthy and unhealthy meatless diets. The absence of meat isn't the cause of a bad diet, as GP was alleging. People have bad diets because they like the taste of unhealthy food and either don't care or don't know about the consequences. (And I'll quibble about it being entirely fast-food derived. Steak-frites is classic French an…

The Coke or milkshake with food in all likelihood is lol.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#236

Post by mattmaroon »

lettergram wrote: post #213
roywiggins wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much meat already uses grain as a substantial part of its input already...

I know, that's my point. We already have a highly efficient and nutritious way to obtain meat.

Well, it’s not highly efficient, at all, except maybe chicken. The feed ratio (how much food it takes to get one unit of meat) on animals ranges pretty widely. Cows are an order of magnitude more than chicken, with pigs in the middle.

A lot of time, energy, and land goes to just keeping the animal alive and metabolizing. And you’re left with the problem of a lot of the parts of the animal are of low value.

Lab grown meat could, in theory, be much more efficient. Just quickly grow the muscles people actually want to eat.

There are also a lot of potential ethical issues with the way meat is raised at scale.

However the comment implying it’s an option currently is ridiculous. It’s nowhere near ready for scale. Might as well cite that Star Trek meal thingy (replicator?).

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#237

Post by ceejayoz »

bluGill wrote: post #233
ceejayoz wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's at all controversial that concentrated monoculture populations are more at risk of spreading infectious pathogens, and there's no evidence that these tests for H5N1 were performed on a bunch of artisanal raw milk producers.

Maybe it should be controversial. Of course there are lots of different ways to do things, but the old ways are not always better. There is a lot of researching into how to raise cows, and as romantic as the open range sounds, the reality isn't all the great for cows either. (little water at times, temperatures that are not comfortable)

> Maybe it should be controversial.

Why should "huffing aerosolized pathogenic virus/bacteria in an enclosed space can be bad for you" be controversial?

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#238

Post by ethbr1 »

triceratops wrote: post #191
ethbr1 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Feeding them meat is abhorrent. "Meat" is a relative term though. If I dry carcasses with some muscle and tissue still on them, grind it up into a powder, and add that powder to grain, is that meat? "For dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return," etc.

If you look at it that way, anything can be anything. We feed soybeans to pigs, ergo I can serve you edamame beans and call them ribs. What you described - desiccated waste meat and grain - is a dog biscuit.

> dog biscuit

Now with 50% less horse!

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#239

Post by themk »

kelipso wrote: post #190
beardedwizard wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The op is likely quoting one of the recent 'hit piece' style articles talking about ultra processed foods and trying to argue nut milk is less healthy because it may not always have calcium. It's pretty absurd, and the basis for the claim is fairly well explained here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8634539/ It is ultra processed in name, not nutrition. By the way, humans are the only species drinking t…

Nut milks in stores almost always have additives, mainly preservatives, which are questionable in terms of healthiness. Now store sold oat milks in particular are very unhealthy, if I remember right it was oatly that has 30% by calorie percentage of canola oil . Cannot get worse that this but so many vegan products do this exact same thing where they stuff whatever processed meat substitute product they sell with can…

Canola oil isn't the devil everyone makes it out to be. Study after study demonstrate that replacing dairy fats with canola oil has positive health outcomes.

That said, plenty of oil free alt milks out there.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#240

Post by themk »

mattmaroon wrote: post #231
lm28469 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We waste like 1/3rd of the food and half of the planet is overweight/obese, I think we could slow down a bit tbh

Could: sure. Will: no. But even if we did, it would still be factory farming (though of course with fewer outbreaks and antibiotic resistance) with other things that people would find problematic for plenty of equally valid reasons. Also if anything, obesity would skyrocket. Meat isn’t the big cause of that, carbs are, and if you cut out meat you get more carbs. Most people gain weight when they go vegetarian.

This is a ridiculous claim. Vegans and vegetarians on average have lower BMI. Most diet intervention studies demonstrate a drop in BMI on vegetarian or vegan diets.

Sure, avoid the highly refined carbs, like white flour and sugar, but substituting dairy and meat for nuts and legumes is going to only be an improvement for your health and the health of the planet.

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