Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation • Hacker News Board

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#231

Post by hervature » Tue, Apr 16, 2024, 10:37 PM UTC

crabmusket wrote: post #206

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a big driver of cost is the scalpers/hedgers who buy out everything and put it on StubHub Not true. About "10% of [performing arts] tickets sold in the primary market are later re-sold by ticket scalpers," increasing to "20-30% of top-tiered seats" [1]. Banning scalping increases attendance but results in "fewer distinct productions...shown in metropolitan areas or states that require ticket resellers to be license…

> Empirically, markets with scalpers have lower ticket prices [2] I haven't read the full paper yet, just the abstract, but the abstract talks about ticket window prices. Do they analyse the prices actually paid by the average attendee, which includes prices paid to scalpers? Or am I misunderstanding the term "ticket window"? As a lay person, my gut asks: if scalpers don't cause attenders to pay more overall, then wh…

The scalper is trading volatility (they may or may not sell the ticket for a higher price) for the opportunity of a return. The venue is getting the opposite side of the deal. Guaranteed income now.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#232

Post by Reason077 » Tue, Apr 16, 2024, 10:38 PM UTC

calgoo wrote: post #79

voidwtf wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand correctly Ticketmaster is still the one creating this problem, they demand exclusivity in their contracts which often means the venue has no choice if they want to participate in a large enough market to continue operating. Similarly artists have trouble securing large venues if not participating in their scheme. This is the problem with most 'monopolies', they reach a certain critical mass where they…

Taylor swift is big enough that she could build a venue in each location if she wanted, so that not an issue. If Taylor and a few other large artists gave the middle finger to ticketmaster and basically created their own ticket system, i promise you that they would have enough pull to basically solve this. However, like you said, thats not in their or their labels interest.

> "Taylor swift is big enough that she could build a venue in each location if she wanted, so that not an issue."

ABBA actually built their own venue for their ongoing "ABBA Voyage" shows in London[1]. That's a residency, though. I'm not sure about the viability of doing it for a world tour!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABBA_Voyage

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#233

Post by darkwizard42 » Tue, Apr 16, 2024, 10:40 PM UTC

zer00eyz wrote: post #192

I used to work in this space. If the DOJ breaks up live nation the only group who gets screwed is the consumer. The sort of artist who is big enough to use live nation also wants a pay day for going on tour. They want the door, they want to sell their merch, they want a cut of the 20$ beer you buy. There might be 1 or 2 artist left who dont want to see you gouged on the ticket but that might not even be true any more…

This exists today... you can buy several tiers of tickets on Ticketmaster and the ability to even access those tickets depends on other status.

Today we see Ticketmaster adding numerous fees and using anti-competitive venue and artist lock-in to avoid the industry having competition.

I have been to over 100 concerts in the last 2 years and I can't say I have noticed any additional value or ease by using my tickets through Ticketmaster (I actually use DICE a lot which at least has a simple resale process for FV and shows full cost)

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#234

Post by resolutebat » Tue, Apr 16, 2024, 10:40 PM UTC

Here's the (2018) viewpoint of somebody who actually owns and operates a concert venue in SF:

https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2018/01/31.html (HN referers banned, so cut & paste into a fresh tab)

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#235

Post by kxrm » Tue, Apr 16, 2024, 10:41 PM UTC

failuser wrote: post #203

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone is complaining about Ticketmaster but they're still giving them their money, so how are they supposed to respond? This is why monopoly is a market failure. There isn't a market mechanism that can correct this.

Potentially, a big player with money to burn can undercut them, but it does not look like that’s going to happen.

> Potentially, a big player with money to burn can undercut them

I guarantee you that Ticketmaster's pockets are much deeper. They have entrenched themselves. This romantic notion that consumers should strike against situations like this or that smaller players should find edges in are just not realistic to me because of the entrenchment, coercion and scarcity at play here.

A very popular band in the 90s tried to fight Ticketmaster. They failed. So I just don't understand this narrative in the face of all the evidence that these tactics just don't or won't work.

https://news.yahoo.com/1994-pearl-jam-took-ticketmaster-2300...

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#236

Post by bonestamp2 » Tue, Apr 16, 2024, 10:42 PM UTC

anthonypasq wrote: post #161

mtillman wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I paid $300 in fees on Sunday for two $365 tickets. Excited to see how this goes.

i would love to see a picutre of you receipt because i frankly dont believe you

I would like to see a picture too, but it wouldn't surprise me. The highest I've actually paid is $44.58 per ticket in fees. But I've seen $50 fees and not purchased.

Here's a screenshot of my receipt from that one: https://i.imgur.com/7mesmdj.png

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#237

Post by bonestamp2 » Tue, Apr 16, 2024, 10:43 PM UTC

BobaFloutist wrote: post #65

kimbernator wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems harsh to blame somebody for simply paying to do something they enjoy when the alternative is just not doing it. Blame the monopoly, not the consumer.

I think we have a duty as consumers not to reinforce anti-consumer behavior, when at all possible.

Unofficially, sure. But officially, the FTC is in charge of protecting consumers from abuse. I'd love to see them step in and regulate this space.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#238

Post by MichaelZuo » Tue, Apr 16, 2024, 10:46 PM UTC

oldandboring wrote: post #155

davidgh wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be sure, Live Nation owns and / or operates many of the venues. They also provide management services to artists. So it’s not that TicketMaster demands exclusivity from the venue, they #are# the venue.

And in court they will probably argue that this is vertical integration that creates savings they pass along to the consumer. DOJ will likely argue they are pocketing it.

Has the DOJ ever won an argument against just vertical integration in the entire history of the US?

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#239

Post by zeroonetwothree » Tue, Apr 16, 2024, 10:47 PM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #218

sirsinsalot wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of this is voodoo accounting since Live Nation through intermediary own most of the venues, promoters, services, security, catering and so on. It's just using their vertical integration and monopoly to move as much money onto their books and increase ticket prices and margins. Shady.

move as much money onto their books and increase ticket prices and margins If we assume their actions don't reduce the supply of shows+seats, the impact might fall only on artists and venues. i.e. it's possible that prices paid by fans would be same with or without these schemes.

Consumers care about the final ticket price. So if TM charges less fees the artist can just charge more face value until they reach the same equilibrium. Anyone that thinks consumers will be paying less is deluded.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#240

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 » Tue, Apr 16, 2024, 10:48 PM UTC

dghlsakjg wrote: post #172

harimau777 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on this? It seems to me that a major difference between flight tickets and concert tickets is that when an airline overbooks they can switch you to a later flight. However, most concerts only perform once in a given city.

I think they are referring to the ability to resell your ticket. In the airline model, your ticket is tied to your identity. If you don't want to use it, you get a refund instead of selling it. You can also choose a ticketing agent instead of being forced to use just a single outlet. In the concert model, you (or a complex entity) buys as many tickets as you can get your hands on from the only seller, and if you don'…

No. I'm referring to the fact that I can book the same airline seat through dozens of companies because of the airline GDS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_distribution_system

Why not this but for concert seats?