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SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

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Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#231

Post by verteu »

nomel wrote: post #113
simfree wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current engineering ecosystem is largely private, and it's poorly functioning, costing us way more money than just hiring engineers as public employees rather than paying a contracting firm to do initial and final design on each rail system segment. Just go look at the RFPs and responses each municipality has four expansion of their current system. It is all outsource to private industry, at great cost compared t…

I would claim that the problem is that they're doing it for government, which is what makes the chain of accountability lead to nowhere.

But why are other countries able to build successfully, despite the same chain of accountability?

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#232

Post by dctoedt »

rayiner wrote: post #209
arrosenberg wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess the people who work on public transit aren't interested in having the best public transit system available. They're only interested in keeping it running for as long as possible with zero changes or responsibility. Let me guess, you also think public servants are lazy, overpaid and unskilled? Comments like this belie how many people form opinions of public agencies without having any real experience with go…

> Let me guess, you also think public servants are lazy, overpaid and unskilled? Comments like this belie how many people form opinions of public agencies without having any real experience with government. I think American public servants are lazy, overpaid, and unskilled, yes. You don’t need experience running the government to know that the government sucks at its job, just like Windows users could tell Windows 95…

> I think American public servants are lazy, overpaid, and unskilled, yes.

Sweeping generalizations much?

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#233

Post by iancmceachern »

sidlls wrote: post #221
madaxe_again wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transit employees are not the same people as, nor have the same motivations as the politicians who manage transport agencies. Of course the employees work hard. It’s the vocation they’ve chosen. I’m always amazed by the diligence of TFL and rail employees in the U.K., for instance. No, the guiding principle for the folks at the top is “so, how can I make money for myself out of this before I fail upwards?”. I’d wager…

It wouldn't surprise me. This city is corrupt as hell.

As I learn more about how this city operates, living here longer, I keep finding myself truly amazed at how corrupt this city is. Even if you try, you can't avoid it. It's truly everywhere.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#234

Post by markus_zhang »

kion wrote: post #75
markus_zhang wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a breakdown of that "hundreds of millions of dollars" and which companies provided the quotes, plus who owns the companies and who are their husbands/wives/uncles/nephews/nieces/etc.

I looked into this last year, a significant part of the cost is in new hardware, both on the vehicles, but also sensors spread through the system. They all need commercial grade RF systems that allow for 2 way signaling communication and integration into the vehicles control systems.

Thanks! That's good to hear.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#235

Post by rayiner »

dctoedt wrote: post #232
rayiner wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let me guess, you also think public servants are lazy, overpaid and unskilled? Comments like this belie how many people form opinions of public agencies without having any real experience with government. I think American public servants are lazy, overpaid, and unskilled, yes. You don’t need experience running the government to know that the government sucks at its job, just like Windows users could tell Windows 95…

> I think American public servants are lazy, overpaid, and unskilled, yes. Sweeping generalizations much?

Your experience as a customer of a transit service is based on the aggregated output of public employees in general, not individuals. I’m sure there are hard working, efficient people at WMATA. But those individuals can’t single handedly keep the system from falling apart when their coworkers are trying to do as little as possible.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#236

Post by bobthepanda »

krallja wrote: post #166
bobthepanda wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

also they need to be rated for the operating environment. you can't stick any random part from newegg in there. Tesla used non-automotive grade touchscreens in some cars and so they died early: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows... Automotive grade has very high requirements: > Grade 0: High Temperature Operating Life (HTOL): +175C for 408 hours. High Temperature Storage Life (HTSL): +175C f…

I’ve noticed that my car’s touchscreen operates at a very high temperature at all times - almost hot enough to burn skin, which seems like a weird choice for something designed to be touched by skin.

That probably means that whatever is running behind the touchscreen is the thing that’s hot, and the touchscreen is doing a poor job insulating that heat. But is also illustrative of why the automotive standards are the way they are.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#237

Post by arrosenberg »

rayiner wrote: post #209
arrosenberg wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess the people who work on public transit aren't interested in having the best public transit system available. They're only interested in keeping it running for as long as possible with zero changes or responsibility. Let me guess, you also think public servants are lazy, overpaid and unskilled? Comments like this belie how many people form opinions of public agencies without having any real experience with go…

> Let me guess, you also think public servants are lazy, overpaid and unskilled? Comments like this belie how many people form opinions of public agencies without having any real experience with government. I think American public servants are lazy, overpaid, and unskilled, yes. You don’t need experience running the government to know that the government sucks at its job, just like Windows users could tell Windows 95…

Once again, I will reiterate that right wing characterizations of public employees are very silly, not reflective of how most municipal agencies operate, and is intended to erode public institutions. Public employees are not inherently more lazy or less skilled than private sector employees. Their incentives and challenges are different. If the performance is subpar, look in the mirror to find the problem.

Its completely besides my point, but comparing sprawling American metros to compact Swiss cantons is not a useful exercise. If we want to redevelop American cities to be more transit friendly, I am on board!

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#238

Post by compuguy »

deathanatos wrote: post #72
compuguy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this feeling that they meant 1988 instead of 1998 ....but I could be wrong? Edit: Even the news article hints at 5 inch floppy disks...which makes 1998 make absolutely no sense to me at least. https://abc7news.com/san-francisco-train-system-has-been-run... .

I'm not sure moving it back a whole decade saves them? My family's first PC in 1987 had a hard disk. The Wikipedia quote they provide lines up with that, and provides a more authoritative point of when it was introduced. And yeah, the "5 inch floppy" quote paired with a photo of a diskette. God only knows what actual hardware the system uses. But point being … the journalist doesn't seem to have found out.

Yeah, on further reflection, I recall my parents having a 286 with a hard drive. Still don't get why they couldn't find a 5.25" floppy. Then again both types of floppy drives are still quite obsolete....

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#239

Post by anon7725 »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #229
culopatin wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d do it. I’d like to be the expert that can help them choose or maybe build the replacement.

The replacement will use modern parts and tools, administered by someone who knows modern systems. There is no use in becoming an expert in an ancient system ridden with proprietary and obsolete parts, just so you can help one city maintain their ancient system. It's even worse than wanting to become a professional fax machine guru.

Keeping a transit system that is relied on by millions of people running seems like a very useful endeavor.

The problem, for an engineer considering this path, is that the gig ends before you want your career to end.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#240

Post by compuguy »

fdr wrote: post #131
iancmceachern wrote: post #63

I emailed them. I live I'm SF. This is the sake, solved, problem we have in the machine tool world (milling machines, lathes, etc). Similar to old keyboards, you can just buy and use a floppy emulator. They emailed me back, they said that the floppy thing makes a good headline but is really just the tip of the iceberg. It's really the whole system that's like this at every layer, it needs replacing they say.

A once a generation refresh seems okay in my book. The Breda trains that came in 1996 were being phased out about twenty years into their tenure, most generally seem to think that is about reasonable a time to do something like that. I don’t see software related regimes as inherently that different. Since I experienced 5.25 inch floppy disk era...and even the occasional bernoulli disk...we could simply say: the syste…

Here in the Washington DC area, our metro still has two series of rolling stock that date back to 1982 and 1987 (2k and 3k series). At the earliest they won't start retiring them in 2024 and 2025 at the earliest...
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