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Real-time map of every Starlink satellite in orbit

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Re: Real-time map of every Starlink satellite in orbit

#231
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to forget given the direction Elon has been heading ever since the "pedo guy" comment but there are a lot of techno-optimists who are obsessively in love with all things SpaceX (and - tho now to a lesser extent - Tesla). This turf isn't astro but it's also not really turf to begin with - just a very enthusiastic singular blade of grass.

Isn’t it against this site’s guidelines to accuse people of astroturfing?

Okay? I literally said it's not astroturfing. Words mean things. I'd argue the lack of reading comprehension presented in the replies to my comment bords on violating the site's guidelines too.

Astroturfing is when a moneyed interest group (an organisation, political candidate, corporation, activist investor, etc) creates a sockpuppet "grassroots movement", usually by creating a coordinated marketing campaign and brand identity that claims to represent an amorphous group of "concerned citizens" rather than the actual people or organizations funding these efforts. The reason there's a word for this in English is that the US has seen this a lot around propositions citizens are allowed to vote on directly, often impacting businesses or sometimes at conflict with the interests of influential religious groups.

The key component here is that astroturf (derived from a brand name for artificial grass) is meant to mimick grassroots activism. Grassroots activism is called that because it is a bottom-up activist movement (hence "growing" like grass) made up of many distinct individuals (i.e. the blades of grass) acting in unison, rather than the typical top-down political movements initiated by political parties and other existing large organizations.

My point is that while the site very much looks like something SpaceX would plausibly be interested in producing or funding, it's explicitly operated by one person who intentionally promotes the company to the point of advertising them as an employer by linking to their jobs page. Hence, it's a single blade of grass. It's apparently genuine not "artificial" but it's not a movement so calling it grassroots (which "it's not astroturf" would suggest) wouldn't be right either.

Usually when speaking of efforts led by individuals the accusations are words like "shill", not "astroturf". And he doesn't seem to be that either. So given that the interest seems genuine, I'd suggest "cheerleader" - "fanboy" would fit but is usually used dismissively. The core here is that it's not just a satellite hobbyist who thinks Starlink is cool and did a fancy illustration, it's someone who genuinely thinks SpaceX itself is great.

The reason I mention Elon Musk should be obvious given that he used to be the hype man for SpaceX (and to a lesser extent still is). He used to be so dominant in popular culture that he even cameoed in an Iron Man because people kept calling him "real life Tony Stark". The website makes sense in that context of unquestioning adoration. My point is that - arguably starting with the "pedo guy" incident - public perception of Elon Musk (and thus his companies too) has tanked since then so it might be odd to still see someone being such a dedicated fan of one of his companies they'd essentially create a marketing project for them. The replies making fun of people (including myself) for being "so consumed with hatred for Musk" make my point: in the past, Elon Musk wasn't so much hated as dismissed and the perception that mainstream opinion is unfairly hostile to him is a recent phenomenon that pretty much started around the time of the "pedo guy" incident.

So to reiterate:

- I didn't accuse anyone of astroturfing, I literally explained why it's not only not astroturfing but also why it's not grassroots either

- I didn't say SpaceX is bad because Musk is bad, I said that the kind of enthusiasm demonstrated by that website is surprising now (hence the accusations) but that it wouldn't have been surprising a mere few years ago

- You shouldn't idolize corporations because they're literally built to generate profit for themselves and any externalities that work out to your benefit are merely a nice side-effect and shouldn't be taken for granted no matter what their marketing copy or true believer employees say

- Elon Musk is a terrible person and seems to work best as a hype man and ideas guy but is neither a good engineer nor a good business person; his public behavior only serves to satisfy his desperate need for personal reaffirmation and harms his companies and their mission statements more than it helps them

- Starlink is a cool piece of infrastructure but it should be deeply concerning that this infrastructure is controlled by not only a for-profit company but effectively one very self-absorbed billionaire who seems to be prone to snap judgements that can literally affect state military performance (just imagine he'd be a Russian oligarch or South Korean or something if "South African / Canadian / US citizen" feels less concerning to you).

Re: Real-time map of every Starlink satellite in orbit

#232
post #119
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not mutually exclusive as far as cost goes - quite the opposite (hence all the talk about "synergy" and "vertical integration" in enterprise spaces) - but you're right about consumer prices. I think what's keeping the consumer prices for Starlink down is that for the vast majority of its coverage it does have competition. Much like how it's in Tesla's best interests for the US not to invest in high-speed rail…

To be clear: I'm arguing monopolies can increase efficiency so they can cause costs to go down but they also eliminate the motive to pass those cost savings on to customers so they usually cause prices to go up. This is well-known enough to be a key part of the strategy of "disruptive" companies that grow by pricing out the competition at a loss and then ramp up prices later (e.g. Amazon, Uber, etc). The US is notori…

Given the site guidelines discourage voting based on agreement, I wonder what part of what I say is so fundamentally wrong and counter-productive it's not even worth responding to and actively detrimental to the conversation.

Is it that I say that monopolies can increase efficiency (e.g. Apple making their own chips and having their own stores)? Is it that companies often disrupt industries by pricing out competition at a loss before hiking prices? Is it that US broadband providers often operate in effective monopoly positions? Is it that Starlink can be disruptive to those monopolies? Is it that it's rational to expect SpaceX to want to be the new monopoly rather than being stuck in permanent competition?

Heck, I literally use Starlink because cable wasn't available and I didn't want to pay for copper until we'll be connected to fiber hopefully later this year. I'm not arguing Starlink isn't useful to consumers in the short term or that there aren't legitimate use cases that can't be equally served by other existing technologies. That doesn't mean there aren't obvious problems with it.

Re: Real-time map of every Starlink satellite in orbit

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the country borders problem will never get resolved. Even now, starlink is only available in US-allied countries.

Apparently it's active in Iran (because the US government wants it to be.)

SpaceX worked with the state department to enable it. It happened during the Iran protests. So it's more like the state department allowed any US connectivity provider to provide service in Iran.

Re: Real-time map of every Starlink satellite in orbit

#234
post #73

This is wild. I had no idea of the scope of Starlink satellites in orbit. What is the life cycle of one of these satellites? How long do they last in orbit? Can they be controlled where they crash land down? How many different versions of the satellites are in orbit? I wonder how often they have their software updated and what happens in the failure state of an unsuccessful update?

They have a lifespan of about 5 years, the limit is the amount of maneuvering propellant to compensate for atmospheric drag they have on board. Next gen, which will be launched by the much larger Starship, may have a lot more propellant. Most are in a five year orbit. This means that if SpaceX loses control of the satellite it will deorbit in five years due to atmospheric drag. Under control they deorbit within hours…

Hey bryanlarsen, as a request could you not post things like this that are confidently incorrect?

> They had a couple of early satellites deorbit naturally without control, but all starlinks currently orbiting are under control.

A trivial check at any online database would find that there are many not under control. And satellites also still deorbit naturally without control pretty regularly.

Re: Real-time map of every Starlink satellite in orbit

#235
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it against this site’s guidelines to accuse people of astroturfing?

Okay? I literally said it's not astroturfing. Words mean things. I'd argue the lack of reading comprehension presented in the replies to my comment bords on violating the site's guidelines too. Astroturfing is when a moneyed interest group (an organisation, political candidate, corporation, activist investor, etc) creates a sockpuppet "grassroots movement", usually by creating a coordinated marketing campaign and bra…

This is a bizarre accusation to make.

Just because it's not a company you agree with doesn't make this any less of a grassroots/fan project.

Some folks see 3000 data points laying around somewhere and just want to create something fun with it.

Re: Real-time map of every Starlink satellite in orbit

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presuming that you translated it to every language: * 3 billion people don't care because they don't use the internet * 7 billion people don't care because they wouldn't be able to afford it anyway * 7 billion people don't care because the question doesn't make much sense to them nor do they really understand what it is about * 4 billion people likely won't participate because voting is not an activity they are famil…

> X billion people don't care because they don't use the internet/can't afford But nearly all 7.8 billion live under the night sky and see 'moving stars'. And that's why I think a global vote would come out saying 'no'.

Vanishingly few of those people have any idea what a satellite is, let alone that they may be visible in the night sky. The vast majority of the global population leans on religion or superstition to explain natural phenomenon. If you know what a star even is, you're in the minority. You might as well flip a coin, because very few people on the planet would even understand the question.

I think you're right that the vote would be no, but not for the same reason you do.

I think many people reading:

> Would you like to have 10,000 satellites launched

... would stop right there and say "I have no idea what that is, so no"

Re: Real-time map of every Starlink satellite in orbit

#237
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay? I literally said it's not astroturfing. Words mean things. I'd argue the lack of reading comprehension presented in the replies to my comment bords on violating the site's guidelines too. Astroturfing is when a moneyed interest group (an organisation, political candidate, corporation, activist investor, etc) creates a sockpuppet "grassroots movement", usually by creating a coordinated marketing campaign and bra…

This is a bizarre accusation to make. Just because it's not a company you agree with doesn't make this any less of a grassroots/fan project. Some folks see 3000 data points laying around somewhere and just want to create something fun with it.

What accusation? I literally said it's a fan project. You're agreeing with me. I said it's not "grassroots" because it's a solo project. Grassroots refers to movements/organizations. This distinction is important.

I'm starting to think there is a number of SpaceX/Musk fans on here who fail at basic reading comprehension. I've repeated my point in several ways and all y'all seem to take away from it is "it's not grassroots so it's a paid shill" which is not even in the vicinity of anything I've written (and something I literally clarified I wasn't saying in the comment you replied to).

Re: Real-time map of every Starlink satellite in orbit

#238
post #49
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ask the entire world you would get stupid answers to a lot of questions. "How old is the universe?" for example would get it hilariously wrong.

You're mixing up matters of logic and fact (how old the universe is) with matters of personal preference (like what I want to eat, should flying cars fill the skyline of my city). People can be trusted a lot more in the second category, which is generally also their right. If they have valid concerns that are getting dismissed, they're not gonna like talking to you.

Citation needed. You can probably ask a few followup questions for many stated preferences and watch the preference fall into dust.

I know personally that when I chose from menus at restaurants I am hilariously bad at picking what I like, while my wife is consistently better at choosing what I like.

Re: Real-time map of every Starlink satellite in orbit

#239
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly given that the satellites are absolutely minuscule compared to the distances between them. People are bad at conceptualising tiny fractions.

You can see them with a naked eye so it's not that minuscule. Either just before sunrise or just after sunset, when the sky is black, and so your eye adapts and you start to see things otherwise too dark to be visible on the sky (stars), the Starlink satellites reflect the light from the Sun (because they are higher than you and so their daylight is longer, earlier sunrise, later sunset).

You can see a star with the naked eye even though it coverers no space on the sky. The size is not relevant.

Re: Real-time map of every Starlink satellite in orbit

#240
post #54
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly given that the satellites are absolutely minuscule compared to the distances between them. People are bad at conceptualising tiny fractions.

Not miniscule enough to not interfere with astronomy due to the exposure times and light sensitivity involved. But yes, they're not big enough to cause a "space junk preventing space travel" kind of scenario.

They reflect enough light. This is different from them occupying significant space. Stars on the night sky for example can be visible with the naked eye but were you to travel 9/10th the way towards them they would STILL appear the exact same size to your eye.
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