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Flightradar24's new GPS jamming map

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Re: Flightradar24's new GPS jamming map

#231

Post by ramraj07 »

seatac76 wrote: post #17
tivert wrote: post #9

So how should I interpret this? The map lacks geopolitical boundaries, so it's hard to interpret. There looks like a big hole of no data over Ukraine, where I'd most expect GPS jamming, but I suppose there are no civilian flights either. Maybe they could setup an GPS observation station on the ground at a surveyed point to get data there. There's a big red blob over Turkey, is that maybe the southern edge of the reac…

I was curious too. Did some sleuthing, it looks more like Punjab. I think that’s to block drone infiltration from Pakistan [1]. It does change going back to 14th March there is no jamming in the region, US and Europe blobs also reduced, so I think this stuff is event driven, wonder what goes on, fascinating stuff. [1] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/over-100...

Or could it be related to the farmer protests?

Re: Flightradar24's new GPS jamming map

#232

Post by ogurechny »

phire wrote: post #189
jjwiseman wrote: post #151

I've been working on mapping GPS jamming using ADS-B data for a couple years, and I'll try to address questions and points brought up here based on what I know. Relevant previous posts on HN: 2022: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32245346 2023: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37868106 (From my comment on that 2023 post: "Why haven't FlightRadar24, FlightAware, or any of the other flight trackers done this?"…

"Do aircraft systems really only use GPS" I know older long-range planes from the 70s and 80s had excellent inertial navigation systems. Not quite as good as GPS, but good enough to know the location of the plane within a few nautical miles. The main problem is that inertial navigation systems drifted over time and required constant recalibration from the crew whenever they had a fix from real navigation beacons and…

Based on discussions of some accidents, pilots often ignore inertial navigation systems at which they rarely look today, and sometimes forget to set the known good location before flights (which does not depend on GPS, as airports don't move).

Re: Flightradar24's new GPS jamming map

#233

Post by cpursley »

jojobas wrote: post #229
cpursley wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide sources where they actually threaten to nuke anyone out of the blue (excluding Medvedev, he’s especially nuts)? All I can find is them clarifying their nuclear policy when pressed about it (would only use in situation of existential threat). Which seems less bellicose than US policy (as the US changed ours not long ago, seemingly allowing for first strike which is pretty insane): https://www.armscontr…

Then you remember they called Ukraine in NATO an existential threat, and wiped their butts with international treaties that were supposed to be much more set in stone than some half-official nuclear doctrine. However, this is all playing chicken. Whenever they were facing actual opposition, they backed down.

Which threats and treaties, specifically? I don't have a great memory - so please share actual sources.

Also, are you aware of this?: https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2019-09/news/us-completes-in...

Re: Flightradar24's new GPS jamming map

#234

Post by Strom »

ardaoweo wrote: post #69
tivert wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another notable spot is Kaliningrad, the Russian exclave. It looks relatively normal on some days, like today, but on others like yesterday it's solid red. Oh yeah, I totally forgot that was a thing, and that explains that spur of red in the Baltic. I'd (probably incorrectly) assumed it was some kind of spillover from jamming in Ukraine. I didn't realize you could look at it over multiple days. One interesting thin…

Russians do plenty of jamming that expands beyond their borders in the Baltic, either on purpose or just as a spillover as they don't care. Before Finland joined NATO they used to also violate our airspace on frequent basis, but since then that has stopped. https://yle.fi/a/74-20079715

> Before Finland joined NATO they used to also violate our airspace on frequent basis, but since then that has stopped.

Probably temporarily. They violate the Estonian airspace on a regular basis with military planes, with their responders turned off. The NATO planes stationed in Estonia then take off and go see them off.

Re: Flightradar24's new GPS jamming map

#235

Post by jwr »

jjwiseman wrote: post #167
jjwiseman wrote: post #151

I've been working on mapping GPS jamming using ADS-B data for a couple years, and I'll try to address questions and points brought up here based on what I know. Relevant previous posts on HN: 2022: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32245346 2023: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37868106 (From my comment on that 2023 post: "Why haven't FlightRadar24, FlightAware, or any of the other flight trackers done this?"…

I'm not a NATO strategist or anything, so I'm adding this as a child comment, but I think the big story in the GPS/aviation world these days is probably Russia's n̵e̵a̵r̵-̵c̵o̵n̵s̵t̵a̵n̵t̵ frequent jamming of GPS over Poland, Finland, Sweden, Estonia, and Lithuania. Degrading and even neutralizing strategic infrastructure in EU and NATO countries, significantly affecting commercial aviation at the least, is a big dea…

It should be a big story, as should be the fact that Russia invaded a peaceful neighboring country and keeps murdering, raping and torturing its residents.

But somehow much of the world pretends not to notice and only does whatever is convenient at the moment (buy Russian oil/gas, do business in Russia, stay "neutral", etc). I find it incredibly depressing, I thought that surely in the 2020s our civilization would have progressed further.

Russia will play the slowly boiled frog game to their advantage — GPS jamming is just the beginning. We will likely soon see further small incursions, each one ever so slightly larger than the previous one. And we'll hear Mr Scholz say something about doing something, but we won't see him actually do anything. Mr Macron will use grand words and do nothing as well. Austria will "declare neutrality" (easy to do when you have other countries as buffers from the aggressor).

As someone currently living in the EU close to Ukraine, I find all this very sad.

Re: Flightradar24's new GPS jamming map

#236

Post by anticensor »

mNovak wrote: post #97
adolph wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do aircraft systems really only use GPS and not the full constellation of navigational satellite systems? Besides GPS, the GNSS currently includes other satellite navigation systems, such as the Russian GLONASS, and may soon include others such as the European Union’s Galileo and China’s Beidou. https://www.terrisgps.com/gnss-gps-differences-explained/

Like the article states, many people use GPS as a shorthand for GNSS generally. In any case, they're all at similar frequencies, so typically they'll all go out together if there's significant interference.

GLONASS notoriously uses its own band and data format, while following the same basic working principle.

Re: Flightradar24's new GPS jamming map

#237

Post by computerfriend »

cpursley wrote: post #233
jojobas wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you remember they called Ukraine in NATO an existential threat, and wiped their butts with international treaties that were supposed to be much more set in stone than some half-official nuclear doctrine. However, this is all playing chicken. Whenever they were facing actual opposition, they backed down.

Which threats and treaties, specifically? I don't have a great memory - so please share actual sources. Also, are you aware of this?: https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2019-09/news/us-completes-in...

For some speculative context: this is because of the "pivot to Asia" as the US does not have a strategic arms reduction treaty with China and is not intended to escalate the arms race with Russia (although that might be a side-effect).

Re: Flightradar24's new GPS jamming map

#238

Post by atribecalledqst »

jcrawfordor wrote: post #75
barryrandall wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rapidly execute a series of maneuvers (flips, rolls) that cause the radios to lose signal.

So I'm a little skeptical on that front because military aircraft are still not that often broadcasting ADSB even during routine flights, at least in my (also close to the border) region. In theory the Air Force was supposed to have completed ADSB installation on their fleet last year but they blew the deadline pretty bad on even installing transponders, and of course they still reserve the right to disable them duri…

I thought Mode C was just barometric pressure data measured by the aircraft. It's related to altitude, not position, so there's no such thing as Mode C "coverage".

e; oh wait you said passive MLAT off Mode C, that makes more sense then

Re: Flightradar24's new GPS jamming map

#239

Post by jojobas »

cpursley wrote: post #233
jojobas wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you remember they called Ukraine in NATO an existential threat, and wiped their butts with international treaties that were supposed to be much more set in stone than some half-official nuclear doctrine. However, this is all playing chicken. Whenever they were facing actual opposition, they backed down.

Which threats and treaties, specifically? I don't have a great memory - so please share actual sources. Also, are you aware of this?: https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2019-09/news/us-completes-in...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

As for INF, US withdrawal was a response to Russia testing infringing missiles first.

Re: Flightradar24's new GPS jamming map

#240

Post by flohofwoe »

cpursley wrote: post #227
zuppy wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every few weeks they're threttening to nuke some country, i think there's nothing that can be called excalation at this point (except the obvious idea to retaliate with guns, but that's a very bad idea).

Can you provide sources where they actually threaten to nuke anyone out of the blue (excluding Medvedev, he’s especially nuts)? All I can find is them clarifying their nuclear policy when pressed about it (would only use in situation of existential threat). Which seems less bellicose than US policy (as the US changed ours not long ago, seemingly allowing for first strike which is pretty insane): https://www.armscontr…

Medvedev is chairman of the Russian security council though, who else would be more qualified for dishing out the weekly nuclear threat?
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