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Berlin's techno scene added to Unesco intangible cultural heritage list

theguardian.com

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Re: Berlin's techno scene added to Unesco intangible cultural heritage list

#231

Post by luzojeda »

wheels wrote: post #187
luzojeda wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine Q. Do berliner straight dislike any tourist no matter how they behave? I tend to go out in Buenos Aires where I live to more underground clubs and don't mind that there are a few tourists here and there. Im travelling to Berlin and was recommended Tresor, is it just a place for tourists?

Hate's not the right word. A lot of clubs have a community around them -- they have their regulars; people go there to see their friends. If there are too many tourists, there's less space for regulars. There are always some tourists, and that's fine, but a lot of those communities that I mentioned a second ago have been choked out by a club eventually being so popular with tourists that the regulars don't bother goi…

Many thanks for the info. When you say some clubs that now the lines are too long, etc. Berghain would be an example? Or is has kept its "undeground" scene?

I'm travelling there for the first time, as a woman alone I wouldn't like to have nasty looks tbh (or even be yelled at as other user suggested), not want to bother, know to behave and just want to get to know the city along with other places in Europe.

Re: Berlin's techno scene added to Unesco intangible cultural heritage list

#232

Post by wheels »

input_sh wrote: post #3
world2vec wrote: post #2

Going on a cultural trip to Berlin this next May, with some of my best friends. What are your most favourite underrated techno clubs in Berlin? I've been to the big ones already, keen to explore the fringe places.

Sisiphos (temporarily closed right now I believe, not sure if that'll be the case by May), Renate, Birgit, Ritter Butzke.

Those are probably all listed in Lonely Planet at this point. Renate and Butkze had stints as scene clubs, but that was like 15 years ago when they were illegal. Sisphyos still has some scene-y-ness, but is a mix of tourists and locals. It only managed to stay off the radar for a couple years when it was only an outdoor location. But it's so big that it can absorb the crowds better. Birgit, on the other hand, was purpose-built for tourists. I actually like going to the biergarten there since it's right around the corner from where I live, and have played there a couple times, but it's unabashadly a club built to look like Berlin clubs except be more accessible for tourists. There was never a point that it was a scene spot.

Re: Berlin's techno scene added to Unesco intangible cultural heritage list

#233

Post by luzojeda »

jijijijij wrote: post #228
luzojeda wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine Q. Do berliner straight dislike any tourist no matter how they behave? I tend to go out in Buenos Aires where I live to more underground clubs and don't mind that there are a few tourists here and there. Im travelling to Berlin and was recommended Tresor, is it just a place for tourists?

> Do berliner straight dislike any tourist no matter how they behave? I think, no citizen of any larger city likes tourists and the way tourism shapes the city. It's mostly ugly, tasteless entertainment venues and ever the same groups of people standing in your way, the same questions asked. Don't expect anyone to be enthusiastic about your week long expedition through their lived reality. Do your own research. You h…

I live in Buenos Aires which became extremely attractive for expats, digital nomads and tourists in general last years due to the favorable exchange rate for first worlders. Considering this I started disliking _some_ tourists as you say. Those that go drunk everywhere, are loud, obnoxious, etc. I don't mind and are actually nice to those that are just chill and want to get to know the city.}

Thanks for the tips :) ! Will make sure to rent a bike while there.

Re: Berlin's techno scene added to Unesco intangible cultural heritage list

#234

Post by luzojeda »

pdntspa wrote: post #194
wheels wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate's not the right word. A lot of clubs have a community around them -- they have their regulars; people go there to see their friends. If there are too many tourists, there's less space for regulars. There are always some tourists, and that's fine, but a lot of those communities that I mentioned a second ago have been choked out by a club eventually being so popular with tourists that the regulars don't bother goi…

Dang... a Berlin native friend of mine took me to Renate around 2011-2012 ish. Great vibe but I got yelled at for being a tourist :( I get it though, where I live we have desert undergrounds and parties up in the mountains with a vibe that is threatening to be overrun by tourists. To say nothing of all the plug-in camps popping up at Burning Man...

It's a fine line between having some foreigners/tourists which can be really interesting fellows with realities completely different from you aaaaand being overrun by people that behave like locusts and just care about consuming as cheaply and quickly as possible no matter what (what happened to us in Buenos Aires). I don't think most people mind some foreigners in the places they frequent, the problem is the excess.

Re: Berlin's techno scene added to Unesco intangible cultural heritage list

#235

Post by Tainnor »

ferongr wrote: post #146
snakeyjake wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Berlin’s scene is actually not so underground and not so cool anymore as a result of tourism and immigration. In my experience, people who like things because they are hidden and exclusive tend to be shitty, shallow, superficial people. Many, many, varied decades of life lived all over the world, and I've never witnessed a counterexample so I hesitate to make it an absolute. Same goes for people who think they like…

On the other hand, normies do ruin everything.

Living in Berlin and being into techno, clubbing and drugs is the most "normie" thing ever. Try being a rock or jazz fan - or even Schlager.

Re: Berlin's techno scene added to Unesco intangible cultural heritage list

#236

Post by ricksunny »

empath-nirvana wrote: post #172
ricksunny wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you distinguish these two? In my head EDM & techno occupy the same space.

There's two definitions of EDM, the first is it's original intended definition, which was as a blanket classification for all electronic dance music -- techno, jungle, house, dubstep, whatever. Instead of calling it techno or electronica, or whatever, EDM was meant to encompass all of it. Almost immediately after the term started being used, though, it became strongly associated with a particular type of dance music…

Thanks, that helps. I would love to see a classifier try to cluster tracks across the different types of "not-necessarily-festival-EDM', and compare to see if it clusters as many fans also would.

Re: Berlin's techno scene added to Unesco intangible cultural heritage list

#237

Post by jijijijij »

cribbles wrote: post #54
larodi wrote: post #4

According to many people, including record shop owners I’ve talked to, Berlin’s scene is actually not so underground and not so cool anymore as a result of tourism and immigration. Rich people nowadays buy property in Potsdam, and the scene is moving towards Leipzig. In a more general sense the old rave cities are making way, and have been making way, to other cities. A movement spanning more than 20 years now, thank…

> the scene is moving towards Leipzig Speaking as someone who's split ~half my time between Leipzig and Berlin for the last 5 years, this is not true. Leipzig's club scene is an extension of its university population. It's younger, straighter, whiter, and about two orders of magnitude smaller. People visit the clubs while they're going to school there, then they graduate and move elsewhere. Often to Berlin. Why does…

The main reason why Leipzig won't become the "next Berlin" is rents are increasing there, as fast as in Berlin. It is still cheaper, but not "let's try and find out" cheap.

I think, for a moment around 15 years ago, Leipzig was dirt cheap and had quite a bit of momentum, because you didn't need a business plan to try and make things happen. People, students from west Germany, payed 100€ for rent and 30€ for an atelier. Lots of raw excitement and empty buildings.

But the momentum died maybe 8 years ago. What's left is nothing like Berlin. Cheaper, but still expensive; liberal-ish, but all kartoffel. Leipzig doesn't feel exciting, but small now. And it's deep in enemy territory, very depressing region, the mere thought doesn't spark joy at all.

Re: Berlin's techno scene added to Unesco intangible cultural heritage list

#238

Post by Applejinx »

luzojeda wrote: post #231
wheels wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate's not the right word. A lot of clubs have a community around them -- they have their regulars; people go there to see their friends. If there are too many tourists, there's less space for regulars. There are always some tourists, and that's fine, but a lot of those communities that I mentioned a second ago have been choked out by a club eventually being so popular with tourists that the regulars don't bother goi…

Many thanks for the info. When you say some clubs that now the lines are too long, etc. Berghain would be an example? Or is has kept its "undeground" scene? I'm travelling there for the first time, as a woman alone I wouldn't like to have nasty looks tbh (or even be yelled at as other user suggested), not want to bother, know to behave and just want to get to know the city along with other places in Europe.

My understanding is that Tresor was destroyed and any current one with the same name isn't 'the' Tresor club. Berghain seems like it's the real successor there, and Berghain is not tourist accessible, it's about as easy to get in as Studio 54 in its heyday.

It's not about just line length, you would have to fit in and seem non-tourist to get into Berghain, and then you'd need to actually enjoy a dark, brutal, kink and techno club full of intentional degeneracy. I would absolutely go, for the music, but wouldn't be as much into the kink side, which I think is escalated somewhat from what Tresor was?

There's a good documentary on the history of Tresor: "Sub Berlin - The Story Of Tresor" which appears to even have a re-cut version on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiuJhq-z2LE

Re: Berlin's techno scene added to Unesco intangible cultural heritage list

#239

Post by wheels »

luzojeda wrote: post #231
wheels wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate's not the right word. A lot of clubs have a community around them -- they have their regulars; people go there to see their friends. If there are too many tourists, there's less space for regulars. There are always some tourists, and that's fine, but a lot of those communities that I mentioned a second ago have been choked out by a club eventually being so popular with tourists that the regulars don't bother goi…

Many thanks for the info. When you say some clubs that now the lines are too long, etc. Berghain would be an example? Or is has kept its "undeground" scene? I'm travelling there for the first time, as a woman alone I wouldn't like to have nasty looks tbh (or even be yelled at as other user suggested), not want to bother, know to behave and just want to get to know the city along with other places in Europe.

Berghain has quite a few regulars. I don't know so much what the mix there inside is anymore. I went a handful of times in its earlier years, and never really loved the place, but haven't been back since the last 2-3 times I waited in the line I didn't get in (which never happened before). There's kind of two poles in Berlin techno style and aesthetics kind of represented by Berghain and Kater / Bar 25, and I was always more in the Bar 25 camp. Berghain is very dark and industrial; Kater is more playful with lots of bright colors and odd objects. The music coming out of their labels is different in the same way.

I think the yelling at tourists is mainly going to be if you're doing something stupid (though some of those are non-obvious: e.g. taking pictures in clubs is mostly a no-no). I probably wouldn't mess with trying to get in to Berghain. Other places you'll have a decent shot. If you want to go like a pro, show up from 4-6 a.m. instead of midnight with the tourists. The pros come out late, and the lines are shorter and the dancefloors are less packed -- if you actually like to dance, later is better. I'll sometimes even go out on Sunday afternoon.

Re: Berlin's techno scene added to Unesco intangible cultural heritage list

#240

Post by ska »

wheels wrote: post #81
junon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Berlin. This isn't true at all. Berlin's underground scene is still quite strong, perhaps just not as strong as it used to be. There's more "in the open" stuff due to the popularity, yes, but there's still plenty of (sometimes literal) underground raves happening. I'd also argue that the most recent accelerator for the shift in culture in Berlin isn't so much the tourism, but the pandemic. People haven't re…

Tourism definitely wasn't a major drag on the techno scene. There's always been the tourist clubs and the clubs that were more underground. Berliners usually don't go to Berlin's best known clubs. (Who the hell goes to Watergate or Tresor? Old joke was that Tresor was the biggest club in Dresden.) I think the biggest drag is actually rent prices. When I got to Berlin 20 years ago you could get a room in a shared flat…

> I think the biggest drag is actually rent prices

This is a super common cycle. City gets economically depressed -> rents drop a lot -> lots of young people and artists, etc. move in -> great "scene" develops -> people with a bit more money start moving in because of the scene -> rents rise -> young people and artists move elsewhere -> scene slows or stagnates.

Obviously that's an oversimplification, and just becoming cheap to live in isn't enough by itself, and just becoming more expensive isn't the death knell.

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