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Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

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Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#231

Post by [deleted] »

jmole wrote: post #226
sandreas wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While is may be true from a user perspective, this "kinetic scrolling simulation" was removed, because it could lead to unexpected behaviour. Example: If you where scrolling in a window, the driver kept sending scroll events for a short time to simulate kinetic scrolling. Now, if you moved the cursor to another window, the other window started scrolling, because of the simulated events. This is not the case on macOS.…

> Now, if you moved the cursor to another window, the other window started scrolling, because of the simulated events. This is such a trivial thing to fix, you just stop sending scroll events when the cursor moves. Peter has done a great job on libinput for the most part, but he is 100% wrong about inertial scrolling (and button remapping, among a few other things).

[deleted]

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#232

Post by richrichardsson »

al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

Even the mousewheel experience is janky as hell on Windows, I don't spend nearly enough time in Linux Desktop to know if it's equally as shit, but seriously; how can something that should be simple behave so badly?

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#233

Post by vladvasiliu »

megous wrote: post #179
al_borland wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I still get the feeling there's some lag between my finger movement and the pointer on the screen. This is a big one. Something I found really impressive, even on the first iPhone in 2007, was that it felt like my finger was moving the display itself, rather than performing a gesture to elicit an action. I feel the same way about the macOS trackpad, it feels almost connected to what is on screen. Other systems usual…

Yeah, no. Just tried on rando iPhone SE 1st gen I have here for some tests, and it lags on scrolling just like any other phone from similar era. You just slide back and forth slowly and observe the content of the screen pretty clearly not following the changes in direction immediately, and you can observe about 1-2cm distance between your finger and text. It's impossible to be in sync anyway, unless you avoid VSYNC,…

Sample size of 1 and whatnot, but this has absolutely never been my experience on my iphone 7, which I've kept up to date and stopped using less than a year ago. Scrolling in Mail, for example, was the contents following my finger. Hell, I complain about Android phones, even newer ones, which lag while scrolling the settings app, but even there I've never noticed that big of a distance between the finger and the text.

Never handled an SE, though, but I doubt it's worse.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#234

Post by paddim8 »

methyl wrote: post #120
jwells89 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that might make a difference is that for a long time now, Apple trackpads are actually touchscreens sans screen. They use the same multitouch hardware as iPhones and iPads, which of course are precise and responsive. I would guess that these are probably a bit more expensive than your run of the mill trackpad from e.g. Synaptics that ends up in the typical laptop.

I thought so, but then installing Asahi results in terrible trackpad experience even though the hardware is the same.

One of the problems with asahi is that it isn't pressure sensitive enough, so you have to press harder. That feels like something that they can fix, but they haven't for some reason.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#235

Post by pmontra »

bmicraft wrote: post #147
pmontra wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using Firefox on Ubuntu from 2009 to 2022, 08.10 to 22.04, then switched to Debian, but I never noticed any problem. I always used X11, a laptop, touchpad and two finger scrolling. Maybe is it a Wayland thing? Or it is very subjective.

Try enabling "XINPUT2" in firefox, you'd be surprised what a difference it makes

I gave it a try. The difference is that XINPUT2 scroll has inertia: I start scrolling, remove the fingers from the touchpad and it keeps scrolling for a while. If I want to stop when I see something interesting I have to click or it will scroll away. That adds an extra action that must performed at the right time. I don't think I like that because this is not a videogame and Firefox is not supposed to challenge my abilities. I prefer the current behavior: it scrolls until I stop sliding my fingers on the touchpad. Then I have to move them up to the top of the touch pad and start again but I can scroll all the front page of HN in a single motion and it gives me time to check what I'm looking at, especially on longer pages (this comment thread.)

Anyway, it's nice to have different settings that suit different people.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#236

Post by rmbyrro »

Is there an initiative going on to make hibernation work on Linux?

I think this is a much higher priority... Honestly, this is the only thing that bothers me about Linux. I need to keep my machine suspended between use sessions, which is a waste of the planet's resources. Imagine that multiplied by the dozens (maybe 100's?) of thousands of engineers doing the same?

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#237

Post by cl3misch »

rmbyrro wrote: post #236

Is there an initiative going on to make hibernation work on Linux? I think this is a much higher priority... Honestly, this is the only thing that bothers me about Linux. I need to keep my machine suspended between use sessions, which is a waste of the planet's resources. Imagine that multiplied by the dozens (maybe 100's?) of thousands of engineers doing the same?

I have always been bewildered about the demand for suspend-to-disk (aka. hibernation). Suspend-to-RAM (aka. standby) consumes virtually no energy, doesn't create disk writes, and wakeup is instant.

The desire for hibernation seems to be constant and widespread though. Honest question, what do you expect from hibernation that you don't get from standby?

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#238

Post by cl3misch »

The touchpad experience on Gnome is largely great already. It has kinetic scroll and gestures.

My only gripe is that you can't control the scroll speed. Especially in Firefox it feels way to fast. There are config options for that, but they also apply to a mouse scrollwheel, which in turn will feel too slow.

I guess the lack of this setting on the OS level is caused by the ongoing discussion what the "correct" place for advanced touchpad settings would be (application/compositor/libinput), which has been mentioned in multiple comments here.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#239

Post by palata »

Dalewyn wrote: post #198
palata wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also... I don't really want Linux on the Desktop to beat macOS/Windows. Because at that point it will be just like macOS/Windows, and I am not on Linux for that. I often see complaints that Linux on the Desktop is not enough like macOS/Windows, and I never understand: why use Linux then? I want Linux because of what it is now, not because I want a free macOS/Windows.

You don't understand because most would-be converts by far want a free-as-in-beer Windows or Mac. Annoyed by Microsoft 365 nagging? Sick of the Apple ecosystem? Mah freedom? Nevermind all that, they're just excuses. The real reason is they don't want to pay $200+ for a Windows license or $1000+ for a Mac.

Sure, I understand the "I don't want to pay" intention. What I don't get is why anyone would work for free to convert those people. I don't need them to use Linux, and in fact I don't want them here because they will push Linux towards a direction I don't like.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#240

Post by dTal »

al_borland wrote: post #172
cycomanic wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also priorise input devices and because of that I would never get a laptop without a track point. Track pads (no matter which ones) are just such a poor choice of pointing device on a laptop, requiring one to essentially move the hand away from the keyboard. Unfortunately I'm pretty much locked into thinkpads now because all other track pointers are pretty crap. The again I can't really complain thinkpads are quite…

My first laptop was a Thinkpad and I used the trackpoint exclusively, because the trackpad was so small and awful (this was around 2001). At the time I said something similar, that the trackpoint is the best. Years later, probably around 2007 I got my first MacBook Pro and the trackpad was great. Many years after that got I got work laptop with a trackpoint on it and had a really problem getting used to it again... t…

Quite possible the trackpoint was genuinely worse in 2007 than in 2001. Like Windows 95 itself, huge amounts of human factors research went into making it worthwhile when it was new and unproven, with usability studies deriving the optimal curves and constants. People described it as feeling like telepathy. And like Windows itself, some time between then and now, everyone seems to have forgotten that it's a hard problem and just started YOLOing whatever random stuff "feels right".

Rant: On my T480 - an extremely popular, flagship Thinkpad - the trackpoint is unusable out of the box on Linux - it crawls at a snails pace unless I manually max out the sensitivity in sysfs, and also fiddle with xinput (no configuration is possible on Wayland). What is worse, infuriatingly, the curve seems to frequently change whenever libinput is updated, requiring me to go and find another set of fiddles to bring it roughly into line. This is clearly not the output of a structured, empirical, research-based approach to the issue, but of someone just fucking around with the constants for one reason or another. It does not feel like telepathy, and it makes my wrist hurt in short order if I overuse it (luckily the laptop also has a generous touchpad).

I dunno, maybe it's better on Windows. But I'd be amazed if anyone cared enough to make sure that 90s usability research was still valid, on modern variants of trackpoint sensors and modern high resolution screens.

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