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Sell for half a billion and get nothing (2021)

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231–240 of 334 posts

Re: Sell for half a billion and get nothing (2021)

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it won’t have a 1 bil payout Does anything have a $1B payout for the founder? I guess there are a few companies that achieve this, but it takes only a modicum of humility to realize you're not likely to be one of the most successful founders this decade.

> modicum of humility = turnoff for investors. They only care for chances at homeruns — singles and doubles are not welcome. You’d better swing for the fences, because that’s the purpose of VC. (This is my understanding, not my endorsement. Please correct as needed)

It's not that they aren't welcome out of some kind of hubris.

It's that singles and doubles aren't profitable for the VC fund.

The VC business model is based on promising investors high return in return for high risk. Typically the fund will take a management fee along the line of 0.5%-2% a year, sometimes frontloaded a bit to account for the higher cost of marketing and finding investment opportunities. 0.5%-2% does not get you rich unless you're a huge fund with very tight operations - it costs money to have people following up a large portfolio. For most smaller funds the management fee will tend towards the lower end, and will just keep the lights on.

Then on top of that you get carry. Carry can vary enormously based on your reputation, and your promises. Specifically, the higher the threshold before the carry kicks in (the hurdle), the more you can insist on retaining above that.

A not untypical example would be to retain 20% of any return over an amortized yearly return of ~7%-15%.

Put another way, in this case $400m of investment was made. The last round was 3 year prior, but much of the capital had been in the company much longer. The VC's in question would, with a 7% hurdle rate need a return of $490m before they'd see any money beyond the management fee if this company was typical of their portfolio and the entire $400m investment was "only" three years old (much of it would have been older).

As such, if the VC funds in question were otherwise successful, a $465m exit would have been dragging their profit down. Not as much as if it'd gone bankrupt, but this was a really bad exit for the VC's, and basically represented the VC's having written the company off as a failure and salvaging what they could before they lost more.

The investors in the VC (the limited partners in the VC fund) would have done better, but keep in mind 7% represents roughly the return of an index fund over time, so for them getting "only" $465m back after it had sat in the VC fund for years will also have represented a significant opportunity cost vs. putting the money in a safer vehicle that might have returned more.

Re: Sell for half a billion and get nothing (2021)

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the model essentially. Makes a lot of sense too. Anyone can get S&P 500 returns with little to no risk. That’s not to say they won’t lose money but it’ll be market returns either way, will be very liquid, and readily transparent to the holder. Given the risk involved in early stage investment the maths just don’t make sense for an investor to shoot for anything short of the moon. tldr; Seed funding / early sta…

There are motivations beyond return. Alignment of capital with values to support a team/product/service that you believe will help in a manner you care about.

Yes, but those investments are not coming from "VC funds". At least not ones marketing themselves as such.

Re: Sell for half a billion and get nothing (2021)

#233

I have a friend that has given up on options. Even if he were to be #10 somewhere he would take any extra pay over any options. Stories like this show the wisdom of that. Are there really that many success stories for people other than for VCs and (maybe) founders out there anymore? Even if your options (eventually) get you 200k, how much did they cost you in years of lower pay. Even with a payout, considering intere…

Had a friend who was employee number 15 at a startup that was acquired for a large amount. Net result was that he earned approximately the same as a FAANG engineer over the same time period (7 years - total comp). He was able to parlay that startup build-to-acquisition experience into better positions in startups after and seems relatively happy about it.

Re: Sell for half a billion and get nothing (2021)

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not super useful advice for founders who (really) need some investment from the get go. The lesson would rather be: don't raise so much at the seed stage. Google got started with a $100K grant. FanDuel raised $400M in four years [1] And it looks like one of the the FanDuel founders did it again [2] This is reckless and should be a massive red flag for new joiners. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FanDuel [2]…

So they raised $416M and sold for $465M. That's 12% ROI. The investors could just buy normal stocks and get similar returns in a year. I don't think there is anything remarkable about this case. It's not like they got a $100K grant and received nothing from a $500M sale.

Several years after their last funding rounds, so the amortized yearly returns would be well below market. Most of the general partners at the VC funds involved likely "lost" money (it'd have dragged down their carry), while the limited partners would have seen below-market returns...

Re: Sell for half a billion and get nothing (2021)

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It also forces you to keep pivoting and finding a cash cow rather than assuming your initial plan was any good. Formative experience: working at a startup, coming upon a fundamental technical problem that will prevent delivery of any of our revenue generating projects & realising that anyone who has spent a meaningful amount of time working on the software would notice the same problem. Noticing nobody else has brou…

Wow, quite a quandry. What did you do?

Super curious as well

Re: Sell for half a billion and get nothing (2021)

#236

FanDuel was really a lose-lose-lose - Investors got a meager return - Company and employees got nothing from the sale - Consumers got a gambling addiction

Isn't there a funny saying about this kind of situation? Something about two economists shitting their pants...?

Economist-A offered his friend, Economist-B, $20 to shit his pants. Then the deal was reciprocated, with Economist-B offering Economist-A $20 if he shat his pants. At the end, Economist-B turns to his friend and says, "does it feel like we both just shat our pants for nothing?," to which Economist-A replied, "no, we created $40 of value."

Re: Sell for half a billion and get nothing (2021)

#237

> When the FanDuel founders raised funds, two key investors received a liquidation preference that entitled them to the first $559M in an acquisition. Founders and employees would be paid only if the acquisition exceeded $559M. > The reality was the founders couldn’t stop the deal because they also granted the same two lead investors drag along rights. This drag along right forced the other shareholders to accept the…

It is a story of people getting screwed. Having layers working for them and using the knowledge asymmetry between them and working people is how institutional money screws people.

Extra bonus points if the employees took an 83b election (paid tax on stock grant up front instead of when vested). Hopefully they all had options instead of stock.

Re: Sell for half a billion and get nothing (2021)

#239

> When the FanDuel founders raised funds, two key investors received a liquidation preference that entitled them to the first $559M in an acquisition. Founders and employees would be paid only if the acquisition exceeded $559M. > The reality was the founders couldn’t stop the deal because they also granted the same two lead investors drag along rights. This drag along right forced the other shareholders to accept the…

I suspect the founders were told that no one was going to invest in gambling companies and they should take their deal.

Re: Sell for half a billion and get nothing (2021)

#240
post #225
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly $400M in funding with only a preference of $559M seems pretty reasonable as far as the VC world goes. That's a 39% return, which yeah is a lot, but we're also talking about half a billion dollars and when your entire business model is built on looking for 10X or 100X returns, a .39X guarantee isn't out of this world crazy. Especially when the actual exit was about half that return.

The last round was also 3 years prior, so the amortised yearly return was definitely not something their investors had any reason to cheer about. From their point of view this was a failed opportunity. People forget that VC funds also aren't great business for the partners without carry (you get a management fee that keeps the light on, but you make your profit largely from a proportion of returns of the fund above s…

The employees were sold a lie that their stock options were worth taking a lower salary. Every single developer effectively invested something resembling 10-30k and was totally wiped out, and if they worked there 3 years that's probably a quarter of their life savings. But the investor only demands a meager $200 million return on their $400 million investment before they recognize the workers' investments.
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