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Nokia made too many phones

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Re: Nokia made too many phones

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The actual phone's usability and software were a complete afterthought. Yet it seems that Nokia phones were loved for their UI. Keypad UIs are hard to create - and competitors certainly had some toxically useless UIs. Somebody at Nokia got something right somewhere along the way? Maybe the engineers? After all presumably the engineers were eating their dogfood.

> Yet it seems that Nokia phones were loved for their UI. Keypad UIs are hard to create - and competitors certainly had some toxically useless UIs. Yes, for making calls, texting, taking pictures and changing settings, Nokia phones were really nice. The whole games (Java) and apps (WAP) side wasn't the greatest. To be fair, no one had a decent game and app experience until the iPhone and G1 (Android) hit.

[dead]

Re: Nokia made too many phones

#232
The main issue they had was fragmented Symbian versions. Oh that and they allowed themselves to listen to Stephen Elop.

I admire their hardware innovation and I think it’s sad we lost it.

My Nokia E61 is still one of my favourite past handsets (Sony’s second version of the Xperia Mini Pro, the iPhone X and the stunning Siemens S35 are the others). And now I probably gave away who I am to at least one person who knows me here.

Re: Nokia made too many phones

#233

The main issue they had was fragmented Symbian versions. Oh that and they allowed themselves to listen to Stephen Elop. I admire their hardware innovation and I think it’s sad we lost it. My Nokia E61 is still one of my favourite past handsets (Sony’s second version of the Xperia Mini Pro, the iPhone X and the stunning Siemens S35 are the others). And now I probably gave away who I am to at least one person who knows…

The main issue they had was Symbian. Period. And not willing to let it go. It was f*&^d up before Elop. Years before him.

Re: Nokia made too many phones

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook played a huge role in that. The growth of Facebook happened at the perfect time with the iPhone, where I think they really helped each other grow. Zuckerberg said Photos was the killer app inside of Facebook that really made it blow up. Smart phones are the perfect device to feed photo sharing sites.

That dovetails nicely with the trends in cameras. When Flickr first started, all of the most popular cameras were DLSRs. Cameraphones were around, but not as common (and Nokia is on that list!). However, as soon as smart phones (iPhones) became popular, they then started to dominate the rankings. In 2010, the iPhone 3G was the most popular camera, with traditional DSLRs right behind. Today, the top 5 are all differen…

>One comment I remember (but don't remember when/where I read it) was that the best camera was the one you already had with you.

This is something I’ve heard (and said) a lot. Probably why you don’t remember exactly where you heard it. I’m guessing it’s a pretty old adage.

The camera phone, and more so the smartphone, really changed photography.

One of my favorite pictures is one I took on a crap flip phone, it’s 352x288. It’s a garbage quality shot, and I wish it was better, but in an age before camera phones, it wouldn’t have existed at all. Getting it off the phone also required deliberate effort, where it’s now just a couple taps to send it out to the whole world.

Re: Nokia made too many phones

#235

There was also conventional wisdom which had to be abandoned before the iPhone came out. Nokia phones had 1 week battery life. They were extending it to one month. The iPhone had a given the app experience available on the iPhone they could live with that. This was a bet Nokia would have never made—-they were not in the user interface business. The fact that Apple—who was not in the phone business—-entered their mark…

Apple didn’t make (or design) much of the silicon in the original iPhones, I think?

They didn’t use their own SoC for six years; it was a custom order Samsung before that.

And oddly enough the (pre Touch) iPod wasn’t their chip or even their embedded OS. It was a thir party OS called Pixo that they perpetually licensed (or bought, it’s not clear from the outside; it may have been merely developed under contract, but Pixo had specific visible credits in the original iPod UI)

I am not saying that Apple don’t make entirely different product and hardware bets (and I have to say I think it’s a shame there aren’t more battery-life-optimising competitors, but the bright screens and the flashy UIs always win; see Pebble).

Re: Nokia made too many phones

#236
post #221
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, large telcos had a decently profitable business setting up their own app stores and charging customers for game and ringtone/wallpaper downloads. And most of the devices that could actually do that properly were Nokias (MIDP was OK, but Nokias outsold MIDP phones ringtone-wise for an order of magnitude).

> Actually, large telcos had a decently profitable business setting up their own app stores and charging customers for game and ringtone/wallpaper downloads. I don't remember app stores or game downloads existing up until iPhone and Android, let alone being profitable. There was MIDP and J2ME, but they were so niche, and I'm only aware of them because of an practical course during university, circa 2008. But maybe yo…

They were definitely a thing, pushed heavily by carriers ("Vodafone live!" etc) with dedicated buttons on the devices that people would mostly press by accident. I don't think they were ever very popular with consumers but I bought a copy of Tetris and an offline travel guide from the Sony Ericsson store. Then you bought a new phone, nothing transferred over or could be redownloaded, and you said F this what a ripoff.

Re: Nokia made too many phones

#237
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where in the world were you located at that time? We'd be around the same age I think, I was in Scotland and bought everything from Argos.

I'd have been just across the water in rural Northern Ireland. Argos was very much part of the picture but most phones came from the local O2 shop.

Was just googling around and found this, maybe you would enjoy it also: https://retromash.com/argos/

Re: Nokia made too many phones

#238
I'm not sure that was a problem. Let's not forget that smartphones, as we know them, weren't really invented yet back then. So there wasn't really a common form factor and feature package that every customer was looking for.

Sure, there were Symbian phones that could functionally do almost anything smartphones can do now (and do more than the first iPhone) but those weren't for everyone and those didn't use touch screens so there were multiple form factors. Like the full keyboard communicators (9210, 9300/9500), the Blackberry clone (E61, I think), the slide keyboard (7650?) and then all the non-Symbian phones (S40 OS, IIRC). And, of course cameras were new and shitty so not every phone had them.

Now this could have caused a problem in itself and what the article says about the organization could also cause problems but (I keep saying this when this topic comes up) the real problem was that the Nokia management was too convenient/coward and didn't dare to switch away from Symbian. Especially since they have bought out Erinsson and Sony (again, IIRC), their former partners in the Symbian consortium in ~2004/5.

There were eperiments with a linux based phone OS around that time. They created the Nokia 770 "internet tablet" [1] which was this PDA-like touch screen device with a landscape screen layout, a pen, and a removable front cover. Obviously it was an experiment (and later followed by the 810 then the 900, the latter being a phone). However no one in the management was brave enough to give a linux phone a go. Especially not committing to a strategy to switch over to linux. Symbian phones were selling great, Nokia was the market leader and you can't really do better than that...

I remember, at one point, one team in the Helsinki office of NRC (Nokia Research Center) was coming up with the idea of creating a "unified architecture" (called the "Grand Unified Architecture") where they would create a uniform platform around the 3 operating systems: a linux based one, Symbian S60 and the (non-Symbian) S40. The genius idea was that they'd create a HAL (hardware abstraction layer) then above that would be one of the 3 OSs and above those would be a uniform API that could be used by all app developers. This would have been a great strategy to side-step an actual decision but other than that didn't make any sense, really. (Maybe you could argue back then that the S40 hardware was not capable of running linux, but there was no excuse for trying to keep both Symbian and linux while hiding them below a uniform API.) So the switch to linux never happened and Symbian was a pain in the ass to develop for. Just concatenating two strings took several lines of code in their C++-based API that hasn't even looked like actual C++. And this made developing in-house software slow and made 3rd party software pretty scarce.

Nokia also had an aversion towards touch screens. One of the reasons must have been that back then only resistive touch screens were available (I think the oroginal iPhone was the first phone with a capacitive one, i.e. one that was an actual touch screen and not a press/push screen). The other reason must have been Symbian (and the S60 skin) that was really not designed for touch screen and was hard to develop.

So Nokia just continued to enjoy being the market leader with the management not taking the risk to try to switch direction. And then the iPhone came and then Android came (who, after seeing an iPhone demo, very quickly changed direction because at first they thought they were competing with Blackberry, so their UI was similar to that and maybe Symbian).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_770_Internet_Tablet

Re: Nokia made too many phones

#239
post #233

The main issue they had was fragmented Symbian versions. Oh that and they allowed themselves to listen to Stephen Elop. I admire their hardware innovation and I think it’s sad we lost it. My Nokia E61 is still one of my favourite past handsets (Sony’s second version of the Xperia Mini Pro, the iPhone X and the stunning Siemens S35 are the others). And now I probably gave away who I am to at least one person who knows…

The main issue they had was Symbian. Period. And not willing to let it go. It was f*&^d up before Elop. Years before him.

If they had concentrated on Series 60 they could easily have fixed Symbian over time. It was highly capable. For example it ran a full Webkit (yes really) browser before Apple shipped their own. That was genuinely useful. It even had code signing for apps in v3 (the version that shipped with the E61)
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