Live data from Hacker News

What if I’m wrong? (2023)

behavioralscientist.org

231–240 of 294 posts

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#231
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far I haven’t seen an argument in this thread for why it’s bad reasoning when you want to show that the reasons are not what’s stated. It was just stated that it’s bad. So why is that?

I've honestly tried but I can't make out what you mean here: > you want to show that the reasons are not what’s stated

Somebody states that they think X because of Y, and they don’t say anything else (Y can be also a group of reasons). You show an analogy where Y would cause Z too (provided the logic is solid). The other party states that they think differently about Z - the reason doesn’t matter.

In this case, either Y isn’t important at all, or there is also something else besides Y, which is not stated. In other words, X is not because of Y logically.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't just decide that the circle is contained in the set of all ellipses. Anyway its a philosophical argument, you can't "prove" mathematically that circles are ellipses or vica versa. Why do circles need to be ellipses anyway, why can't they be absolutely different? If they were absolutely different, then circles would be purely ideal, and yet an organizing principle (or as the say in Greek, an ἀρχιτεκτονική, f…

I'm not who you replied to, but the reason circles are ellipses is because the definition of a circle is equivalent to the case of an ellipse where both foci have the same x, y coordinates. You can read about all the definitions of an ellipse on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipse Functionally, they might not be the same if you're programming them. For example, if you have a circle class with members det…

I was just wondering about this the other day, it turns out Gödel actually got really into phenomenology later in his life...

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel/goedel-phenomenolo...

Also, that definition of a circle as an ellipse via locus points (which you mentioned) still requires defining ellipses by an imaginary, ideal circle--even if transcendental (and I've mentioned elsewhere, the circle never appears). The circle that appears is always already an ellipse, empirically, so in pure mathematical terms as I've said the ellipse is actually absolutely different from the circle, which always exceeds it. In order for the circle and ellipse to be set in relation one must be forced to be analytically composed under the other.

Edit: Its clear that phenomenology was the most important philosophical influence on the modern theory of computation, but its curious to me that those that study pure math and physics haven't, for the most part, realized that yet, even as they employ computers to do so much of their work.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#233
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since the past has resembled the future in the past many times, that gives us evidence that the past resembles the future Ah not evidence in the strict sense of the world. I mean in the sense of probabilistic Bayesian reasoning [0], which I think we all use in some form (consciously or subconsciously) in forming our beliefs of reality. Since the laws have been stable in the past, we can hold a strong credence (say…

Right, but what's at stake is induction itself, which is what Bayesian reasoning is just a formalization of. I never understood why Bayesianism could be a solution to the problem of induction, it just seems to move the problem elsewhere - like, in Bayesian language, what justifies our choice of a particular prior (assuming a uniform prior is still a choice). >How can it be otherwise? Chains of reasoning have to botto…

> what justifies our choice of a particular prior

Right that's a good question. I'll point to an answer Sean Carroll gave in an AMA episode [0] of his Mindscape podcast:

  The pros and cons of Bayesian reasoning are almost all in the choice of a prior. People who are pro-Bayesian will say, look, as long as your priors aren't completely crazy, if you collect enough data, the priors cease to matter. [...] The promise of Bayesian reasoning is that data overwhelms your prior ultimately. And therefore, there is no algorithmic way of choosing what your prior should be. It's a little bit fuzzy to say when things are priors and when things are posteriors because we all have certain inclinations, intuitions, pictures of the world, and that's perfectly okay. But as a good Bayesian, you shouldn't be too worried about picking your priors. You should be mostly worried about updating those priors when data comes in, when information comes in.
> Chains of reasoning have to bottom out somewhere

Absolutely. We should do our best to keep asking the why question, but at the end, we'll be left with a brute-force fact. The question then is, where do we stop, right? In the context of this thread, religion wants to say, God is the final answer. What caused God? Nothing, God is His own cause (kalam cosmological argument). And as a naturalist I'd say, the universe can be its own cause. There's no rational inconsistency there, contrary to what the kalam argument claims. Theists and atheists give different credence to these two viewpoints. And until we have more data, the question cannot really be settled with certainty. So both will keep trying to justify why one viewpoint should have a higher prior over the other, based on secondary evidence.

[0] https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/04/03/ama-...

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#234
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that people are often swayed by feelings, and that we don’t operate as perfectly logical/rational beings. But if the only thing that convinced you of a thing is an analogy or emotional appeal, and if in being convinced you learned nothing about the underlying argument the analogy is supporting, you are susceptible to being convinced by similarly compelling analogies or emotional appeals that may or may not ha…

> beliefs for bad reasons It’s easy to argue against and for “badness” of any reasons. It’s a totally valid, and good argument that somebody just feels it. All of us do this on some level. Just because I feel it that we should consider things “good” when they are generally good for world’s society in general in some specific metrics, and builds my thoughts about more topic solely on that, from how to handle cigarette…

> Case in point: eating beef. It’s not good to anybody. I still do it. I violate my core principles for it. All the time.

Wittgenstein was wrong, but people never want to accept it.

https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/72280/first-p...

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#235
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that people are often swayed by feelings, and that we don’t operate as perfectly logical/rational beings. But if the only thing that convinced you of a thing is an analogy or emotional appeal, and if in being convinced you learned nothing about the underlying argument the analogy is supporting, you are susceptible to being convinced by similarly compelling analogies or emotional appeals that may or may not ha…

> beliefs for bad reasons It’s easy to argue against and for “badness” of any reasons. It’s a totally valid, and good argument that somebody just feels it. All of us do this on some level. Just because I feel it that we should consider things “good” when they are generally good for world’s society in general in some specific metrics, and builds my thoughts about more topic solely on that, from how to handle cigarette…

I was referring to the formulation of beliefs based on reasoning that is not sound, e.g. an emotional appeal that convinces someone but has insufficient evidence to back the underlying claim.

For example, I convince you that flying causes insanity because my uncle once flew and went insane, and the situation affected me so deeply that I urge you with every ounce of persuasion I have not to suffer the fate of my uncle. Let’s say you stopped flying because of my story, and later found that you had no reason to believe it. This is what I’m referring to. Maybe it’s “good” that you stopped flying for climate reasons, but the reason you stopped was “bad”. And this matters because the moment you realize the reason was a bad one, you may think there’s no longer a reason not to fly (assuming my story was the only reason you were avoiding it).

You’re describing a scenario where you understand the potential “badness” - presumably based on evidence - but choose the “bad” option anyway. This is a very different scenario and not what I was getting at.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not who you replied to, but the reason circles are ellipses is because the definition of a circle is equivalent to the case of an ellipse where both foci have the same x, y coordinates. You can read about all the definitions of an ellipse on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipse Functionally, they might not be the same if you're programming them. For example, if you have a circle class with members det…

I was just wondering about this the other day, it turns out Gödel actually got really into phenomenology later in his life... https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel/goedel-phenomenolo... Also, that definition of a circle as an ellipse via locus points (which you mentioned) still requires defining ellipses by an imaginary, ideal circle--even if transcendental (and I've mentioned elsewhere, the circle never appears…

> Also, that definition of a circle as an ellipse via locus points (which you mentioned) still requires defining ellipses by an imaginary, ideal circle--even if transcendental (and I've mentioned elsewhere, the circle never appears).

How so? I don't understand. It seems like the opposite to me: because a circle can be defined as a special case of an ellipse, then a circle is defined in terms of ellipses, not the other way around. The definition of an ellipse is a generalization of the definition of a circle.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#237
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I'm a Christian (convert to Catholicism) and I respectfully but completely disagree with the GP when he says: >> If Christianity was a conclusion reached after a set of rational arguments, you would be right. But belief in Christianity is sort of logically prior to rational argumentation. Of course, we have Christian apologetics, which make arguments for certain aspects of Christianity, but this isn't really th…

> I think God's existence can be proved rationally We have to be careful here by what "God" means. God as in a First Cause is trivially true, but is not what most people mean when they say God. The existence of the God of religions, i.e., a personal all-loving human-caring God who listens to human prayer can only be shown true or false empirically. In my comment, I posited alternative universes, for example, the Devi…

Again, all your objections can be answered, and if I were either rich or childless I would do so myself. But I'm neither, so all I can do is provide you with a book recommendation: check out Edward Feser's work, especially Aquinas and Five Proofs. If you want to see Dawkins refuted in his own tone, see The Last Superstition.

What research have you done up to this point to answer your questions?

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just wondering about this the other day, it turns out Gödel actually got really into phenomenology later in his life... https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel/goedel-phenomenolo... Also, that definition of a circle as an ellipse via locus points (which you mentioned) still requires defining ellipses by an imaginary, ideal circle--even if transcendental (and I've mentioned elsewhere, the circle never appears…

> Also, that definition of a circle as an ellipse via locus points (which you mentioned) still requires defining ellipses by an imaginary, ideal circle--even if transcendental (and I've mentioned elsewhere, the circle never appears). How so? I don't understand. It seems like the opposite to me: because a circle can be defined as a special case of an ellipse, then a circle is defined in terms of ellipses, not the othe…

Its quite a difficult problem...but also one I am actually currently working on, so I should probably put some effort into thinking about it. Give me some time and I'll get back to you. If only there was some way to do private messages on here.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I'm a Christian (convert to Catholicism) and I respectfully but completely disagree with the GP when he says: >> If Christianity was a conclusion reached after a set of rational arguments, you would be right. But belief in Christianity is sort of logically prior to rational argumentation. Of course, we have Christian apologetics, which make arguments for certain aspects of Christianity, but this isn't really th…

I was wondering when a Christian was going to join the conversation! >Firstly, I think God's existence can be proved rationally I have never really bought that natural theology successfully gets you all the way. You're correct in identifying my lack of complete endorsement of Catholicism, I've always been sympathetic to Kierkegaard (Protestant) in thinking that Christianity is not merely an intellectual exercise in p…

Thanks for clarifying. Anyone, of any belief, can have immediate, apparently self-evident experience that validates or defines their worldview. But we need good reason to believe our experiences are about reality, and are not just a bunch of things that we feel very strongly are about reality, but in truth are not.

And again, there is a sense in which union with God is dependent on logic, inasmuch as logic (logos/Word) is just another way of saying reality :-). That which is illogical is not, and cannot be; it is non-being.

Re: What if I’m wrong? (2023)

#240
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've honestly tried but I can't make out what you mean here: > you want to show that the reasons are not what’s stated

Somebody states that they think X because of Y, and they don’t say anything else (Y can be also a group of reasons). You show an analogy where Y would cause Z too (provided the logic is solid). The other party states that they think differently about Z - the reason doesn’t matter. In this case, either Y isn’t important at all, or there is also something else besides Y, which is not stated. In other words, X is not be…

I don't see a problem or a point. A cause can have more then one effect, a logically sound analogy doesn't make all analogies logically sound. And producing causal arguments is inherently hard, we've spent centuries holding irrelevant things as fundamental causes of phenomena, and we still don't know fundamental causes for most observations we have produced.
Post reply on HN