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How to hire low experience, high potential people

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Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you measure "are they cool" without just directly transforming all of your biases and stereotypes about the candidate into a numeric score?

"Cool" isn't a good word to use, but it is important to filter for people who can get along with others. Some candidates can't make it through an interview without being condescending to someone, making snide remarks, being arrogant, trying to start arguments about trivial things, or other negative behaviors. If they're doing this during the interview, you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg. It's going to be 100X…

I completely agree that toxic people destroy teams. I just have no idea how to detect that in an interview. It definitely makes sense to immediately filter out anyone who sets off "this person may be an asshole" vibes, but beyond that, what can you do? Some sort of "probationary let's see if we get along" period would probably be pretty effective, but that's unfair to new hires.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#232
post #5

> Most smart people are actually terrible at having the drive/follow through to take things to completion. They’ll usually want to give up at the first sign of failure or slowness. You can also hire that really "smart" person from a large co to a startup and watch them be extremely successful in a low-friction environment for crossing the finish line.

What makes you think a startup is a low-friction environment rather than a different kind of high-friction environment where the corporate person could be absolutely miserable and unprepared for execution with resource constraints?

> the corporate person could be absolutely miserable and unprepared for execution with resource constraints?

This is possible and even likely depending on how you hire.

But I think the OP might be assuming you can onboard whomever you've hired and instead referring to the relative incentives in each environment. For example, big companies tend to plan quarter to quarter, while small companies typically have a pile of things they need done urgently and are incentivized to help folks move as fast as possible (company runway may only be 1 year). That sets up a dynamic where large companies make you spend time derisking new project proposals and getting buy-in, in a way that small companies don't (this is where the agility comes from). Bigco also may have higher standards for getting something off the ground and a lower tolerance for code that is likely to be thrown away, whereas at startups you often write a pile of not-so-great code just to prove the thing works + understand your customer, with the knowledge that you'll have to throw it away when it's time to grow and scale.

One more annoying wrinkle: big companies sometimes have investments that mean you can't use the best tool for the best job. At Google you have to use borg and a very annoying deep stack of stuff to expose a service to the public -- you can't just buy a domain and spin up your website on a $10/mo server with nginx. You can't use React. You can't use PyTorch and just fork the hottest new model that came out -- you'll have to translate it into Tensorflow or JAX first. You also have to build using tools that assume and can handle scale, but sacrifice agility and developer ergonomics for that.

Oh one more thing: people at big companies are so obsessed with level. If you have good ideas and want to try them out but you're underleveled, you're going to have an impossible time geting buy-in from leadership to let you lead or even try the thing. At small companies if you have an idea that's good for the company, it's obvious to your leadership and they're just like go do it, you're in charge of this project, show me what can happen in a week. And you can make stuff happen. Low friction. Big companies might also have an entire team of PMs trying to decide what to prioritize (all the while playing political games since it affects their standing in the company), who also have to sync with eng and design, and then some pushback between the two happen. At small companies the number of people to get on board is just smaller and it makes things go faster.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a nauseating bias here against people who've had horrific childhoods. "Let me tell you about the years of physical/emotional/sexual abuse I've suffered though." That's just not going to happen - and if it did happen the interviewer is probably not going to come away with "What a brave person to overcome all of that!" but "What a damaged person, I don't need them around". Well done, you've weeded out people wh…

Yes, I think I'd be fine weeding out people who can't read a social situation and decide to traumadump to their future coworkers.

Ok, you seem to have read this ‘social situation’ (more like economic extortion to me) differently to everyone else here.

How would you handle this?

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#234
post #164
post #16

So you're looking for a creative, self-starting, committed, open, persuasive team-player that can go their own way and work with the team to achieve big goals. Got it. /s P.S. The /s is sarcasm.

So you'd see applicants like those that the article describes as being very desirable?

Sure, much like magic and unicorns are desirable. The kind of human they are looking for doesn't actually exist.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I think I'd be fine weeding out people who can't read a social situation and decide to traumadump to their future coworkers.

Ok so how should someone with a traumatic childhood answer questions about their childhood? You can change the subject or answer very surface-level and be labeled "unengaged" or "socially inept" You can answer truthfully and be judged for traumadumping You can make up a fake origin story that fits the interviewer's criteria and be disingenuous

I don't know about you or your story. I hope you're doing well.

I've learned that the majority of people just don't want to hear anything negative or anything that makes them feel sad. If I want to have social, casual friends, I have to wall off parts of my life story.

Thankfully, I have a couple of close friends and family who know the reality and that is enough for me.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#236
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the role you're hiring for. I suspect a lot of comments in this thread, echoing your sentiment, will be written from the perspective of sharp-end-of-the-stick engineers for whom the idea of working on ambiguous organizational problems is an abstract concept, far from their day to day. Not saying that's you per se, but this is HN after all. This crowd loves for things to be clear-cut, especially when the…

It's unclear to me how "non-engineering types" can make use of stories about e.g. "caring for a dying parent" in the context of a job interview. I mean, can anyone (layperson or not) actually "psychologically evaluate" someone based on anecdotes from their life? I also worry that this stuff can be gamed. If an applicant gains an advantage by telling a story about how he "cared for his dying aunt while finishing a deg…

Yeah, it's a great question to select for good bullshitters.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. You are joining a company, not a cult. Basically they are filtering for people who can speak the same jargon correctly. I have heard a lot of stories about people failing DEI questions during an interview because they didn't know the "correct" phrases to use.

Who asks DEI questions? For engineering roles? As a sometimes hiring manager myself I'm genuinely curious.

[dead]

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#238

> “Tell me about you. If your life was a book, give me the chapter titles from your birth till now.” Once you’ve gotten the overview, dive into each “chapter” and plumb the depths for their real stories. Go back to their childhood! I learn a lot about their grit and commitment to excellence from their basketball obsession or maybe their experience caring for a dying parent. I don't think I'd be comfortable sharing th…

I have a large gap in my resume from a bout of depression that left me basically incapacitated for nearly 10 months. I get asked about it all the time in interviews. I just respond “I’m under NDA”. I also get asked about GitHub profiles. I have a pseudonym on GitHub, and maintain a few projects. I dont divulge that information either. “I’m under NDA” or “I only work in proprietary code with many trade secrets involve…

I'll have to remember that one.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you have a tech startup do you really care that you hired the son or daughter of a car dealership magnate from the other side of the country? Of course! That's an incredible resource. Even if they don't specifically drive business your way, having the person's ear is something that can be leveraged to great effect. You don't exactly become a car dealership magnate without knowing a thing or two about business an…

> Of course! That's an incredible resource. Even if they don't specifically drive business your way, having the person's ear is something that can be leveraged to great effect. You don't exactly become a car dealership magnate without knowing a thing or two about business and they can teach your startup a lot. A magnate is more likely to chum with investors who might be interested in helping your business. This is an…

> I highly doubt the son of the owner of Henrysburg Chevrolet in Henrysburg, Georgia is going to bring anything to the table that a startup in San Francisco needs

And what is it that you think this hypothetical startup actually needs? The most motivated janitor money can buy?

> You have no idea if dad knows anything about business.

A magnate that knows nothing about business? That doesn't make any sense. A magnate is literally characterized by their involvement in business. Perhaps you mean that mom could be the magnate instead of dad? There was nothing to suggest that she isn't the magnate. It was never specified.

> And if he does, you have no idea if dad taught any of it to kid.

And? You're not hiring the kid for his business acumen. You are hiring the kid for their mediocre capabilities in whatever work you need done and using them as a connection to get in touch with the magnate of the family.

A slightly better worker isn't significant like you make it out to be. In fact, even if you do find the 'magical rockstar', chances are they'll quickly move on to the next job anyway, and then you're back to dealing with mediocre. May as well design the company around mediocre from the start. Let's be real: Startups are generally not attractive places to work as compared to the alternatives the best of the best have in front of them. If the 'rockstar' really, truly, wants to live the startup life, they are going to start their own and eat your lunch in the process.

> And if he did, you have no idea if any of it is relevant to developing biotech software.

But the advice of a welfare parent is? There are no guarantees in life, but when playing the odds that is who you are choosing?

> Nobody in the company is going to care about dad's connections to the dude that runs Henrysburg Laundromat.

Except for the person who actually has to make the business a success, not just collect a paycheck and get a new job if the business fails. They don't get to sit around writing code all day. They have to actually get out there and meet people who will move things forward.

I get it, Field of Dreams is a fun concept... for a movie. But that's not how things work in the real world. Simply building it is not enough. Business is, at the end of the day, about people.

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