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Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

nightshade.cs.uchicago.edu

231–240 of 710 posts

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#231
post #192
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason people are arguing against this technology is that no one is using them in the way you describe. They actually wouldn't even be economically viable in that case.

If it is not economically viable for you to be ethical, then you do not deserve economic success. Anyone arguing against this technology following the line of reasoning you present is operating in adverse to the good of society. Especially if their only motive is economic viability.

I feel like you read my comment and interpreted it in exactly the opposite way it was intended because I agree with you, and you're making the same point I was trying to make.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you go and study a work of fiction in a college class, unless that material is in the public domain, you're gonna have to pay for your copy, No you wont! It is only someone who distributes copies who can get in trouble. If instead of that you as an individual decide to study a piece of art or fiction, and you do no distribute copies of it to anyone, this is completely legal and you don't have to pay anyone for i…

Making a profit off variations of someone's work isn't covered under fair use.

Gotcha.

I wasn't talking about someone creating and selling copies of someone else's work, fortunately.

So my point stands and your completely is in agreement with me that people are allowed to learn from other people's works. If someone wants to learn from someone else's work, that is completely legal no matter the licensing terms.

Instead, it is only distributing copies that is not allowed.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#233
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's going to be interesting to see how the lawsuits against OpenAI by content creators plays out. If the courts rule that AI generated content is a derivative work of all the content it was trained on it could really flip the entire gen AI movement on its head.

If it were a derivative work[1] (and sufficiently transformational) then it's allowed under current copyright law and might not be the slam dunk ruling you were hoping for. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

Not if it is AI generated. So far only humans can be original enough to warrant copyrights, at least in the US .

BTW, the right to prepare derivative works belongs to the copyright holder of the reference work.

I doubt that many AI works are in fact derivative works. Sure, some bear enough similarity, but a gross majority likely doesn't.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#234
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t really see any difference in those images on the Twitter example when viewing it on mobile

The animation when you change images makes it harder to see the difference, I opened the three images each in its own tab and the differences are more apparent when you change between each other instantly.

One of the few times a 'blink comparator' feature in image viewers would be useful!

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#235
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were a derivative work[1] (and sufficiently transformational) then it's allowed under current copyright law and might not be the slam dunk ruling you were hoping for. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

"sufficiently transformational" is carrying a lot of water here. At minimum it would cloud the issue and might expose anyone using AI to lawsuits where they'd potentially have to defend each generated image.

Sufficiently transformational only applies to copyrightability, but AI works are not copyrightable under current US law, so it's a non-issue.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but there's also fair use, and every use I mentioned could plausibly fall under that.

There's no such thing as fair use until you get to court (as a legal defense). Then, the court decides whether it is fair use or not. They may or may not agree with you. Only a court can determine what constitutes fair use (at least in the US). So, if you are doing something and asserting "fair use," you are literally asking for someone to challenge you and prove it is not fair use.

> There's no such thing as fair use until you get to court (as a legal defense)

Well the point is that it wouldn't go to court, as it would be completely legal.

So yes, if nobody sues you, then you are completely in the clear and aren't in trouble.

Thats what people mean by fair use. They mean that nobody is going to sue you, because the other person would lose the lawsuit, therefore your actions are safe and legal.

> you are literally asking for someone to challenge you and prove it is not fair use.

No, instead of that, the most likely circumstance is that nobody sues you, and you aren't in trouble at all, and therefore you did nothing wrong and are safe.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#237
post #172

This is the DRM problem again. However much we might wish that it was not true, ideas are not rivalrous. If you share an idea with another person, they now have that idea too. If you share words on paper, then someone with eyes and a brain might memorize them (or much more likely, just grasp and retain the ideas conveyed in the words). If you let someone hear your music, then the ideas (phrasing, style, melody, etc)…

> But the hard cold reality is that you cannot “own” an idea.

The above comment is true about the properties of information, as explained via the lens of economics. [1]

However, one ignores ownership as defined by various systems (including the rule of law and social conventions) at one's own peril. Such systems can also present a "hard cold reality" that can bankrupt or ostracize you.

[1] Don't let the apparent confidence and technicality of the language of economists fool you. Economics isn't the only game in town. There are other ways to model and frame the world.

[2] Dangling footnote warning. I think it is instructive to recognize that the field of economics has historically shown a kind of inferiority complex w.r.t. physics. Some economists ascribe to the level of rigor found in physics and that is well and good, but perhaps that effort should not be taken too seriously nor too far, since economics as a field operates at a different level. IMO, it would be wise for more in the field to eat a slice of humble pie.

[3] Ibid. It is well-known that economists can be "hired guns" used to "prove" a wide variety of things, many of which are subjective. My point: you can hire an economist to shore up one's political proposals. Is the same true of physicists? Hopefully not to the same degree. Perhaps there are some cases of hucksterism, but nothing like the history of economists-wagging-the-dog! At some point, the electron tunnels or it does not.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#238
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unauthorized copies? If the images are published on the internet how is it downloading them "unauthorized"?

Publicly available doesn't mean you have a license to do whatever you like with the image. If I download an image and re-upload it to my own art station or sell prints of it, that is something I can physically do because the image is public, but I'm absolutely violating copyright.

That's not an unautharized copy, it's unauthorized distribution. By the same metric me seeing the image and copying it by hand is also unauthorized copy (or reproduction is you will)

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#239
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to fairly monetise your creative work and put food on the table is a bit rivalrous though, don’t you think?

No, I disagree. There is no principle of the universe or across human civilizations that says that you have a right to eat because you produced a creative work. The way societies work is that the members of the society contribute and benefit in prescribed ways. Societies with lots of excess production may at times choose to allow creative works to be monetized. Societies without much surplus are extremely unlikely to…

> There is no principle of the universe or across human civilizations

Can you list the principles across human civilizations?

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#240
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adobe is training off of images stored in their cloud systems, per their Terms of Service. OpenAI has provided no such documentation or legal guarantees, and it is still quite possible they scraped all sorts of copyright materials.

Google scrapes copyrighted material every day and then presents that material to users in the form of excerpts, images, and entire book pages. This has been ruled OK by the courts. Scraping copyrighted information is not illegal or we couldn't have search engines.

Scraping is only legal if it's temporary and transformational. If Google started selling the scrapped images it would be a different story.
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