The case for single-stair multifamily • Hacker News Board

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#231

Post by Animats » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 11:14 PM UTC

multjoy wrote: post #126

nicole_express wrote: post #21

I'd like to see more discussion of the safety impact; I know the article makes the point that fire deaths per capita are lower in Europe, which lacks the requirement, but it also notes that US housing stock is also much more wooden and therefore at higher risk to begin with. (Wood construction is generally a good thing from a sustainability perspective) Whenever I see this proposed my brain immediately goes to the Gr…

Grenfell is what happens when building regulations are poorly enforced. In principle, each apartment in Grenfell should have been able to burn out completely while the neighbouring units were untouched, so there was no need for a second stair as any evacuation would have been limited to units adjacent rather than the entire population. What actually happened is that years of neglect had seen firebreaks and bulkheads…

Which is why the article's call for "reform of defect liability laws that drive insurance costs up for condo developers" makes his whole position deeply suspicious.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#232

Post by steveBK123 » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 11:15 PM UTC

snakeyjake wrote: post #222

nicole_express wrote: post #21

I'd like to see more discussion of the safety impact; I know the article makes the point that fire deaths per capita are lower in Europe, which lacks the requirement, but it also notes that US housing stock is also much more wooden and therefore at higher risk to begin with. (Wood construction is generally a good thing from a sustainability perspective) Whenever I see this proposed my brain immediately goes to the Gr…

>US housing stock is also much more wooden and therefore at higher risk to begin with. Fire compromising the structure of a building, or the structure itself burning is almost never the cause of death or injury. The primary killer in structure fires is hydrogen cyanide gas. Wood does emit hydrogen cyanide but the primary source is synthetic materials like upholstered furniture, wall and floor coverings, cabinetry, an…

What are your thoughts on sprinklers in these types of situations? Are they mostly to give people enough time to get out? Do you feel the safety reduction of moving to single stair is offset by requiring sprinkling?

The way I have seen the idea of single-stair multifamily proposed in US was that in areas where zoning requires sprinklers in multifamily dwellings anyway, all the extra hallway space required for the second stairway is an unnecessary burden cost wise for little marginal safety.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#233

Post by kjellsbells » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 11:16 PM UTC

There's logic, and there's what is politically feasible.

I assert that people generally understand building safety codes to have been written in blood: the rule exists only because once upon a time it didnt, and people died. Fire exits and Triangle Shirtwaist, that sort of thing.

Coupled with the equally strong perception that property developers and builders will take any shortcut to make a buck, and the ideas in this article are simply dead on arrival. The public will vote with their wallets and stay away.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#234

Post by gamepsys » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 11:17 PM UTC

adameasterling wrote: post #63

This is a fantastic article. Burdensome regulations on housing construction have caused costs to skyrocket. Minimum lot sizes, setback requirements, square footage minimums, floor-area ratio restrictions, overzealous height restrictions, parking requirements, abuse of environmental reviews, historic designations, community reviews, overzealous MFH requirements (like double-stair), below-market mandates, all have work…

Just curious, are there any regulations on housing you agree with? There tends to be belief that housing regulations exist to limit supply. Let's not forget that many of these encourage safety and are cost effective ways to increase the quality of life of the residents. If we take deregulation and cheap housing to the extreme we end up with shanty towns.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#235

Post by amluto » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 11:21 PM UTC

> The common hallway that must connect the two stairs in a modern American code-compliant building cuts the structure in two, cutting off the possibility of floor-through apartments found in traditional American multifamily architecture like the New York City tenement or the Los Angeles dingbat.

What requires a common hallway? The example single-stair plans seem like an equal number of staircases could be bolted on the back, giving every unit a second egress.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#236

Post by autoexec » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 11:22 PM UTC

slyall wrote: post #131

nicole_express wrote: post #21

I'd like to see more discussion of the safety impact; I know the article makes the point that fire deaths per capita are lower in Europe, which lacks the requirement, but it also notes that US housing stock is also much more wooden and therefore at higher risk to begin with. (Wood construction is generally a good thing from a sustainability perspective) Whenever I see this proposed my brain immediately goes to the Gr…

Unfortunately people from the US (including those who have never lived in an apartment or thought about fire regulations before) instinctively get really worried about this whole idea and assume people are just going to get killed. Happens in this thread and whenever it is brought up in social media. The original article talks about statistics, various extra measures to ensure safety and limiting to buildings 6 store…

I think there is some of that certainly, but it's also worth being cautious anytime a developer says they want to abandon fire codes that were put in place to save human lives so that they can add greater density housing. Fire codes got where they are in part because developers were fine with packing people into unsafe housing situations. Let's not let our guard down entirely now.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#237

Post by epistasis » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 11:23 PM UTC

rsync wrote: post #96

I knew this was coming. Affordability problems in desirable locales already caused progressives to jettison anti-sprawl initiatives and environmental reviews. It was only a matter of time before our gaze shifted to building codes and life safety provisions as cost-adds that "we" should all work against. It does not gratify me in any way to have foreseen this.

> progressives to jettison anti-sprawl initiatives and environmental reviews.

I follow these matters closely in my state and others, but have never heard a single instance of either of these!

Could you point to some examples, because I would love to know more, and have not found and examples by searching the web.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#238

Post by ska » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 11:25 PM UTC

amluto wrote: post #235

> The common hallway that must connect the two stairs in a modern American code-compliant building cuts the structure in two, cutting off the possibility of floor-through apartments found in traditional American multifamily architecture like the New York City tenement or the Los Angeles dingbat. What requires a common hallway? The example single-stair plans seem like an equal number of staircases could be bolted on t…

> What requires a common hallway?

Effectively, the building code they are talking about the value of changing. Fully enclosed stairways at the back for each "slice" would be cost prohibitive, and exterior "fire escape" type stairs are not allowed either.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#239

Post by epistasis » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 11:25 PM UTC

jes5199 wrote: post #38

I think we've hit peak density already and the rest of the 21st century will be defined by people moving into former farmlands

I think just the opposite, people want more density but outdated views have made it illegal.

Former farmlands are cheap, dense areas are super expensive. The market has spoken, yet we continue to undersupply density by regulatory fiat, against the will of the people.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#240

Post by massysett » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 11:26 PM UTC

The evidence the author gives is not compelling.

"Almost every country in Western Europe—where single-stair apartment buildings can rise many times the IBC’s three-story height limit—has fewer fire deaths per capita than the US."

There is no analysis of where these fire deaths are occurring: are they in single-family homes? Commercial buildings? Car wrecks that caught on fire? Trailer parks? More compelling would be to compare apartment deaths in other countries with those in the US or, at a minimum, explain why the available statistics advance this thesis even if they are not completely comparable.