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Is my plane a 737 MAX?

ismyplanea737max.com

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Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#231
post #108
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>those use actual flight plan data, so will take into account any last minute aircraft changes. But at that point it's too late. I doubt people are that afraid of 737 Max that they'll cancel a flight (and forfeit their ticket) over it.

> But at that point it's too late. I doubt people are that afraid of 737 Max that they'll cancel a flight (and forfeit their ticket) over it. Luckily the airlines I travel with only use Airbus, but if they were using 737 Max, I'd definitely book tickets that I can change at the last minute, and refuse to board if it turns out to be a 737 Max. Yes, that's probably illogical. And probably much of life is illogical. But…

The 737 is cursed. Not illogical to avoid it. There are plenty alternatives.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of who is ultimately at fault, this is about people not wanting to fly on these planes. They don't care if it was Boeing or if it was a subcontractor, they just want the information they need to cancel their flight or demand a different plane from the airline.

If it was a subcontractor, wouldn't they want to not fly on planes made by that subcontractor?

Those other planes aren't experiencing active safety disruption events at the moment, so no. We might not ultimately know whose fault it is, but we know which planes are faulty. 737 MAX has a history of problems, and I'm shocked they weren't shelved the first time.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think we can even remotely say that. From all photo evidence I’ve seen, some cushions were sucked off the seat. These cushions are designed to be removed. If a passenger was seated and wearing their seat belt, I have every faith that they would have been fine . Uncomfortable as hell but ultimately fine. I’ll bet money the NTSB report will say as much. And the point stands that the only reason this story is no…

It is trivial to see how someone sitting there not seat belted could have perished. You do understand that long stretches of flight allow you to be unseatbelted right?

They allow you to, but on every single flight I’ve been on in ages, the pilot makes a note that they recommend keeping your seatbelt fastened whenever you’re seated. People have been injured due to sudden and unforeseen turbulence, and it’s just a good idea in general.

That said this incident occurred during the initial climb-out where seat belt use is mandatory.

So yes, if a passenger was seated there and if their belt was unbuckled, I can see how somebody would have died. Nobody is saying that this isn’t a serious fuckup that doesn’t need to be investigated and remedied.

What I am saying is that major airlines in the U.S. have a more or less unblemished safety record for twenty two years, the likes of which has not only been unparalleled in aviation, but by any other form of transport. Literally walking is more dangerous than flying a major commercial airline in the U.S.

The MAX line of planes in particular has had their share of problems, but with the MCAS situation resolved there is no reason to believe that it in particular is any less safe than any other airframe operated by the majors. The issue with the door plug is unlikely to be related to the MAX (the same part and design have been in service without issue since well before the MAX). It will be investigated, fixed, and we will in all likelihood go back to flying gajillions of passenger miles without serious incident.

I’ll put this another way: if all of this gnashing of teeth and doom and gloom causes enough anxiety over flying that a few hundred people choose to drive instead, it will inevitably cause more injury and death than if every airline went all-in on a fleet of 737 MAXes.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#234

Aviation is safe. An issue happened and appropriate steps have immediately happened and in the end an already incredibly safe industry will be even safer. If a car has an issue we don't blink and we loose nearly 40k people a year in the US alone, but a plane has an issue and we panic. Yes, panic. This is not rational or helpful and is a huge reason why aviation is so antiquated. You want flying cars? Stop panicking a…

I don’t want innovation that comes at the expense of human lives. The same thing is going on with self driving cars right now. It is wild to me that they aren’t required to follow the same regulations as airliners. The safety record of commercial airliners should be help up as an example of how the system works. It’s proof that we can set aside corporate greed and design systems that are safe if we want to. The way t…

> I don’t want innovation that comes at the expense of human lives. The same thing is going on with self driving cars right now. It is wild to me that they aren’t required to follow the same regulations as airliners

If self driving cars follow the airline model we won't see them for, at best, decades. That is decades of 40k deaths a year in the current human driven model. Self driving cars have the potential to drop that dramatically, but only if we actually develop them.

Everything has a cost. Not changing has a cost. Changing has a cost. Weighing those two is important. If you only cite the costs of changing without considering the costs of not changing you will never change and always believe you are making the right choice.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a brand new plane? Yes it is.

> In a brand new plane? Statistically, there is no difference between a new plane and one that's been flying for 18 years [1]. Given dying because an installer fucked up feels mighty similar to dying because a maintenance tech fucked up, I don't see a rational reason to over-penalise fabrication errors to the extent that it overrules millions of successful flight miles. (Design mistakes are categorially different.) […

I'm pretty sure if you personally drove a new car off the lot and the door fell off you would not believe that quality were unchanged from your prior impression of that car company.

Just because it's happening to other people doesn't make it okay to hand-wave away safety.

And by the way, so far NTSB believes it's not a fabrication error but an assembly error. NTSB suspects 4 bolts were never screwed in.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#237
post #26

Are you less safe on a 737 MAX than driving to the airport in a car? Genuinely curious, I’m trying to understand if this whole saga is statistically significant.

Most accidents occur to people close to or inside their home.

They should stop worry about airplanes and traffic accidents altogether! :-)

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#238
post #158

A lot of people don't realize that the fuselage of this plane isn't even made by Boeing, it's made by Spirit AeroSystems which also makes components for Airbus. We don't really know who to blame here until the investigation concludes.

We know that Boeing has a lot of Q&A problems with these planes and are taking all kinds of shortcuts. It seems the blame should be placed squarely on Boeing.

We know they have in the past. Placing the blame on Boeing in this instance is conjecture. The investigation is not complete.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#239
post #108
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>those use actual flight plan data, so will take into account any last minute aircraft changes. But at that point it's too late. I doubt people are that afraid of 737 Max that they'll cancel a flight (and forfeit their ticket) over it.

> But at that point it's too late. I doubt people are that afraid of 737 Max that they'll cancel a flight (and forfeit their ticket) over it. Luckily the airlines I travel with only use Airbus, but if they were using 737 Max, I'd definitely book tickets that I can change at the last minute, and refuse to board if it turns out to be a 737 Max. Yes, that's probably illogical. And probably much of life is illogical. But…

It may be illogical from a strictly individual point of view. But from a broader societal view we'd all be better off if we did it and it is pro-social and pro-civic to be willing to sacrifice a little of your personal convenience to make a point like this. Nothing but nothing will get Boeing's attention like what is essentially an end-customer strike.

In general quite a lot of the chains wrapped around us that drive so many people to complain are really only kept there by raw personal selfish convenience. To be clear, I am absolutely not saying that they are not real as a result. They are perfectly real. But in many cases they are still really nothing more than personal convenience holding you. For instance, as I write this, almost all of the dangers of smart phones can be kept at bay just by refusing the conveniences. (Not quite all. But really quite a lot of them.)

We'd all be better off if there were more of us willing to take this kind of stand, and by that standard, it is Vulcan-grade logical.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except according to the top comment, "A lot of people don't realize that the fuselage of this plane isn't even made by Boeing, it's made by Spirit AeroSystems which also makes components for Airbus. We don't really know who to blame here until the investigation concludes." So I guess you just shouldn't fly.

Except Airbus doesn't have planes falling apart in midair even if they are using the same supplier. This is clearly an issue during assembly regardless of the supplier of the parts.

In 2010, an Airbus A380 engine exploded. The fact that it landed safely was a miracle. [1] In 2017, an Airbus A380 lost an engine (literally, fell off the plane). [2] In 2018, a cockpit windshield blew out in an Airbus A319. [3]

Don't get me wrong, the culture at Boeing has changed (for the worse). The 737 Max is not without issues. It's horrific that hundreds have died due to both ignorance and deception on behalf of Boeing.

But Airbus isn't some sort of flawless golden goose either. Any time something like this happens, failure modes are identified and things will get safer.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32

[2] https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/news/the-latest/photos-airb...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sichuan_Airlines_Flight_8633

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