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Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

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Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#231

Post by s1artibartfast »

imtringued wrote: post #215
s1artibartfast wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What it sounds like your friend did is used a mind trick to create a habit so it was a required part of his routine, which made it easier. Whats the difference between a mind trick, willpower, decision, and dedication? Deciding that you will do something and not internally debating it IS willpower.

That's not willpower at all. I have to do things I don't want to do all the time. Once I am in the mindset, it is trivial to just continue it. If I go to sleep, it is easily lost and takes hours to recover. Therefore, the easiest way to do it, is to simply not go to sleep and stay up for another two hours and ruin my sleep. It's very easy, zero willpower is needed. Willpower is completely overrated. People who talk a…

What is willpower?

I think physical power/ strength is an interesting analogy.

A weightlifter can pick up 20lbs with ease, my frail mother couldn't if her life depended on it.

What is the equivalent for mental strength?

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#232

Post by hydrok9 »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #228
hydrok9 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of famous singers that don't dance on stage. Neil Young, Kurt Cobain, Geddy Lee, Bob Dylan. Having a sense of rhythm and a good ear just aren't enough to make you a good dancer.

Your examples of singers that don't dance on the stage don't prove that they can't, but just that they don't want to. I was asking about someone who is a well known singer but actually tries to dance but really can't and it shows. And again, we are talking about correlation, and not exact match of skills. So it wouldn't mean that a great singer is automatically a _great_ dancer, too. Just that if someone is really go…

I guess being around musicians my whole life i've never considered that there would be a correlation, cause the skills aren't transferrable.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#233

Post by antwerp1 »

lazide wrote: post #176
analog31 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My shopping list is sequential by aisle, so I don't go down the aisle if it's not on my list. I wonder if shopping online for delivery helps curb impulse buying

Online delivery unfortunately makes it almost impossible to ‘pick an aisle’, as you’re going to get exposed to dark patterns and ads constantly while interacting with the site. You also can’t actually see what you’re buying (or feel/touch the actual box), which greatly increases the odds of catching shenanigans.

Is “dark patterns” basically behavioral economics or a technical term?

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#234

Post by antwerp1 »

dceddia wrote: post #200
dyno12345 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be a stupid question, but what is "identity" in this context? I ask because when this subject has come up I realize I don't seem to be able to think up theories about myself so easily

Run a few test theories and see what resonates. Are you the kind of person who goes to the gym every day? Are you the kind of person who works on their hobbies at night? Are you the kind of person who binges Netflix between dinner and bed? Are you the person who cooks dinner from scratch, or orders takeout at every chance? etc. I think of them a bit like stereotypes but applied to myself, and see if I think I fit.

It’s not supposed to be descriptive in this case, unless it’s a reflection or self-assessment. For goals, it’s supposed to be aspirational, like a vision you cultivate for yourself. You can meditate on that self-image, or identify other people with that trait and associate yourself with them, etc. The idea is that you will violate your sense of self by acting against how you expect yourself to be.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#235

Post by antwerp1 »

rodlette wrote: post #27
bitshaker wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Changing your identity is much more powerful and sort of operates in a background process whereas willpower is more of a conscious foreground one and very difficult to sustain long term. Read the book. It goes into some detail. I’ve worked with thousands of people personally over the years to help them with supposedly difficult to treat addictions for instance. Willpower is fine to start, but completely fails in…

I'll look into it. I think I acquired frugality from reading a few books that made me frugal. I'd like other traits too.

First time I’m reading about a character trait walking straight off the page into the reader’s life..

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#236

Post by antwerp1 »

jancsika wrote: post #16
antwerp1 wrote: post #3

It’s just like decision fatigue: your capacity for it diminishes the more you use it (within a given time range). Instead, carefully curate your identity . This is described well in Atomic Habits. Train yourself to think “I am just not the kind of person who does x.”

> Instead, carefully curate your identity . This is described well in Atomic Habits. Train yourself to think “I am just not the kind of person who does x.” Interesting but orthogonal to the article. The article: "I am the kind of person who has changed my environment such that doing x is inconvenient enough that I can avoid it most of the time without having to use much willpower."

It’s not always possible to change your environment. In the most difficult scenarios, you will actually have very little control over your environment. But it’s still possible to overcome a challenge, without simply trying to willpower your way through it.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#237

Post by pi-e-sigma »

hydrok9 wrote: post #232
pi-e-sigma wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your examples of singers that don't dance on the stage don't prove that they can't, but just that they don't want to. I was asking about someone who is a well known singer but actually tries to dance but really can't and it shows. And again, we are talking about correlation, and not exact match of skills. So it wouldn't mean that a great singer is automatically a _great_ dancer, too. Just that if someone is really go…

I guess being around musicians my whole life i've never considered that there would be a correlation, cause the skills aren't transferrable.

And you were with them when they casually danced in clubs and you saw they actually can't dance? Or you are around that that kind of musicians that actually never ever dance for fun at their leisure?

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#238

Post by hydrok9 »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #237
hydrok9 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess being around musicians my whole life i've never considered that there would be a correlation, cause the skills aren't transferrable.

And you were with them when they casually danced in clubs and you saw they actually can't dance? Or you are around that that kind of musicians that actually never ever dance for fun at their leisure?

Went to many music festivals, clubs, dances with them. They couldn't dance. They weren't incapable of learning how to dance. They just weren't automatically good at dancing because they were good at playing music.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#239

Post by lazide »

antwerp1 wrote: post #233
lazide wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Online delivery unfortunately makes it almost impossible to ‘pick an aisle’, as you’re going to get exposed to dark patterns and ads constantly while interacting with the site. You also can’t actually see what you’re buying (or feel/touch the actual box), which greatly increases the odds of catching shenanigans.

Is “dark patterns” basically behavioral economics or a technical term?

Behavioral economics is ‘white hat’. Influencing (in the actual definition). Figuring out how to get them something that actually does benefit them, and modifying the environment or ‘nudging’ the target to encourage it.

Dark patterns is when the actual long (or short) term benefit of the ‘target’ is not a meaningful part of the goal, and the only consideration given is just a given result for the person with the power. Aka manipulation.

Helping someone looking for an off-road vehicle (because they actually need it), your off-road vehicle which is a pretty good one, is behavioral economics.

Using the same tactics to get the exact same someone to buy your luxury car is dark patterns.

Notably, a con artist/fraud is the criminal face of it - since they never even give the target a car at all, but take their money.

The difference between influence and manipulation is the consideration of the actual well being of the target, and the degree of autonomy allowed the target.

Needless to say, this is also the first thing miscreants start deluding themselves and others on when they start getting predatory.

So it’s a very dangerous area to be in for anyone who actually values ethics/morals.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#240

Post by antwerp1 »

lazide wrote: post #239
antwerp1 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is “dark patterns” basically behavioral economics or a technical term?

Behavioral economics is ‘white hat’. Influencing (in the actual definition). Figuring out how to get them something that actually does benefit them, and modifying the environment or ‘nudging’ the target to encourage it. Dark patterns is when the actual long (or short) term benefit of the ‘target’ is not a meaningful part of the goal, and the only consideration given is just a given result for the person with the powe…

Thank you. Is it a technical term used in marketing?

Plenty of people also criticize behavioral economics for being manipulative, especially if they don’t agree with the behavior to be “corrected”

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