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Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

timeuse.barcelona

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Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#231

Post by camkego »

maicro wrote: post #175
mongol wrote: post #168

All attempts to optimize society by changing time zones and adjusting for daylight savings time time should be abandoned. Let society set the schedule after a static time. With this I mean ordinary time zones and the same time throughout the year. Which approximately should correspond with the sun at its highest at noon. If someone prefers brighter mornings and darker afternoons, and someone else the opposite, the so…

Honestly I would prefer to go even further - UTC for the entire planet, no offsets. Unfortunately I know most people won't go for that...

This!

It really seems the simplest way to go. But I guess because of history it's hard for people to conceptualize how it would work. (Outside of HNers that is)

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#232

Post by M2Ys4U »

dfawcus wrote: post #173
dist-epoch wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even one of the signatory experts is from UK/Ireland. They could be completely clueless of what dynamite they are playing with.

Yeah, but given they seem to be proposing that the UK change from its current natural position, to what would be permanent BST, it seems daft. (It would help if they'd included the UTC offsets with their diagram) I'd suggest that ain't going to happen, especially as the UK is no longer a member of the EU, and so this will be ignored. As I recall part of the issue with the previous time this was proposed was that the…

>Yeah, but given they seem to be proposing that the UK change from its current natural position, to what would be permanent BST, it seems daft.

They're not, though? The UK would be on UTC/GMT rather than BST.

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#233

Post by mongol »

rlpb wrote: post #225
mongol wrote: post #168

All attempts to optimize society by changing time zones and adjusting for daylight savings time time should be abandoned. Let society set the schedule after a static time. With this I mean ordinary time zones and the same time throughout the year. Which approximately should correspond with the sun at its highest at noon. If someone prefers brighter mornings and darker afternoons, and someone else the opposite, the so…

I agree with this in principle but I also acknowledge that in practice it's not so easy. Changing the "official" local time means that every interaction is changed in a coordinated way. Otherwise you have times specified in contracts (eg. employment contracts), official school timetable hours, rush hour train schedules and a million other things that have settled together so that they coordinate, that is a huge socia…

Yes, but I think that only makes sense when it is obvious that a very large part of society benefits of that way. I don't think that benefit is sufficiently clear, some people prefer one way, and others another. Then society should not interfer.

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#234

Post by ghaff »

amai wrote: post #221
jalk wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic it would be unhealthy to permanently move from Portugal to Spain.

"Some activists believe that the mismatch between Spain's clock time and solar time contributes to the country's unusual daily schedule.[9] They believe that the relatively late sunrises and sunsets shift the average Spaniard's day later than it otherwise would be, and that a return to its original time zone would help boost productivity and bring family and work rhythms into better balance.[10]" https://en.m.wikiped…

Certainly, it's a plausible theory that Spain being so far off its "natural" solar time (because Franco supposedly switched timezone in WWII to be in sync with Germany) leads to the late dinners--and one I've often heard. I suppose you'd have to look into pre-WWII Spanish dining habits. Whether it's a good or bad thing? Personally, I like lighter evenings more than mornings.

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#235

Post by [deleted] »

dudul wrote: post #159
switch007 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am. What’s your point ? I know Ireland likes the riches that come with EU membership. They don’t want to return to being a poor country. It would be a time zone difference, not a partition. Let’s not used such loaded language. Edit: is the USA “partitioned” or any less united because of multiple timezones?

The US would definitely be more efficient with fewer timezones. Really we should find a way to remove at least one between the 2 coasts. United, no, but the US is not the EU. America is united by default, Europe divided.

[deleted]

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#236

Post by hpb42 »

xoa wrote: post #53
datadrivenangel wrote: post #2

"After agreement of a common date within the EU, we recommend doing the transition in 1 to 2 steps, depending on the member state: Step 1: All EU countries abolish the clock change to DST in spring and remain on the clock time they use in winter. For those countries whose recommended time zone is their current standard time, no further steps need to be taken. Step 2: Those countries whose recommended time zone is not…

Well we can't, and that's having tried! The replies do a great job of illustrating why really: there's no consensus. Some want permanent standard time. Some want permanent DST. Some are fine the way it is. In a big country spanning a lot of latitude as well as longitude and tens of millions on wildly different work and sleep schedules, messy compromise making no one entirely happy is what success looks like. Basicall…

Brazil abolished daytime change a couple of years ago. Our time is the same all year, no more +1 and then -1 hour.

It was mess on the day there should a change, many people arrived on their appointments one hour before or later. Many automatic systems changed their time, different clocks at home reported different hours.

This chaos lasted one morning. After some time, nobody now complains about not having it. Many people don't remember about the change anymore. The only people that complains about daylight change are the ones that work with people from countries that have that.

Abolishing daytime change is not the same as adopting an "universal" (country-like?) timezone, but shows that it is _possible_ to do on a "big country spanning a lot of latitude as well as longitude and tens of millions on wildly different work and sleep schedules".

Maybe the main issue is that many people fear change? (Which is quite "funny", as winter/summer time is a change in time...)

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#237

Post by highmastdon »

jetzzz wrote: post #82
highmastdon wrote: post #32

We (Europe) shouldn't fragment time zones that much. We (NL) should stay on permanent summer time. Reasons - criminality is lower when there's longer light - earlier darkness leads to more accidents. It's better to have longer darkness after the masses are RESTED (in the morning), opposed to when they're TIRED (in the evening) - longer day-time for office workers, is more productive - shorter time of year that has lo…

> We (NL) should stay on permanent summer time. > Reasons > ... Why not just have time as close to solar as possible and move working hours as needed? I have always found arguments for permanent summer time very confusing. Just move working hours as needed, why do you need to deviate the entire clock from the solar time for that?

Interesting perspective. I'd like to use that and say that we should have solar noon in the middle of our "awake" hours instead of in the middle of our work hours. This would benefit even more. We're not in a society where your activities are from dawn to dusk, more so, it's usually from dawn to dusk+evening time.

So, let's take the assumption that the average awake time is 7:00 - 22:00. Gives us 15 hours of awake time.

Solar noon should be at 7:00 + half of the awake time: 7 + 15/2 = 14.5 = 14:30

To calculate sunrise on the longest day and shortest day we use: 14.5 - half of light time

To calculate sunset on the longest day and shortest day we use: 14.5 + half of light time

This means sunrise and sunset in Amsterdam:

summer, longest day, 16:48, 16,8 hours:

- sunrise: 14.5 - 16.8/2 = 6.1 = 6:06

- sunset: 14.5 + 16.8/2 = 22.9 = 22:54

winter, shortest day, 7:41, 7.683 hours:

- sunrise: 14.5 - 7.683/2 = 10.6585 = 10:40

- sunset: 14.5 + 7.683/2 = 18.3415 = 18:20

Given this reasoning, instead of being GMT+1, Amsterdam should be GMT+3 all year round

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#238

Post by tempaccount420 »

nurumaik wrote: post #222
thatfrenchguy wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://qntm.org/abolish

>I want to call my Uncle Steve in Melbourne. What time is it there? With timezones: google "what time is it in melbourne" Without timezones: google "when morning starts in melbourne" Didn't convince me a little

Yeah, sunrise/sunset can differ widely even in the same timezone.

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#239

Post by dirtybirdnj »

jalk wrote: post #147
dirtybirdnj wrote: post #124

DST is social terrorism at this point. "We" keep it that way because the herd is too scared to change. Never underestimate the awful raw power of herd thinking, it's the worlds greatest cancer.

Really? Perhaps you should checkout https://www.timeanddate.com/ to see when the sun rises/sets in the summer in various places. I.e. June 21st Stockholm - 03:30 and 22:08 with DST. The vast majority of people simply prefer evening sun to "useless" night sun.

So we should re-adjust timezones in places where it's not a problem because some different people have chosen to settle in places where the sun isn't as optimal... and their comfort outweighs the experience of the people who don't need timezone adjustment?

Because they made a bad choice on where to live and now they don't care about the unintended consequence on others?

Help me understand why "your" problem on the other side of the earth deserves to override what is best for me locally.

DST is not natural. Animals do not set their watches back and forth. It's a human construct. We only do it "because we've done it" for years and the general population is too herdmind to even consider changing it.

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#240

Post by maicro »

almostnormal wrote: post #190
maicro wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I would prefer to go even further - UTC for the entire planet, no offsets. Unfortunately I know most people won't go for that...

> Honestly I would prefer to go even further - UTC for the entire planet, no offsets. The use of "tomorrow" and "yesterday" will be confusing in parts of the world where at 24/00 o'clock it isn't night. Convincing people will be difficult. But for just the the EU it would work nicely.

That actually is a good point I hadn't considered; I think it would still make enough sense in the local context ("tomorrow" is "the next time most of us will wake up"), but yeah, it adds a lot of confusion for short term relative terms...

I could maybe argue "well, 'yesterday' and 'tomorrow' aren't very precise anyway - you need the entire context of the conversation to understand what they're referring to", but they're well established and understood... Darn.

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