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Apple pulls plug on Goldman credit-card partnership

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Re: Apple pulls plug on Goldman credit-card partnership

#231
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The default settlement account, Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund, has incredibly low credit risk because its assets are short-term US Federal gov debt and Federal Reserve repurchase agreements. [1] Neither of those entities have substantial default risk. Further, the global financial chaos of significant defaults from either of those entities would likely render FDIC insurance ineffective because too many banks wou…

Or Vanguard could collapse from the inside because some C-level officer was dipping into customer funds to cover some bad investment, and everyone takes a haircut on the holdings. On top of the drop in market value because most vanguard customers invest in vanguard funds, which suddenly become a toxic asset. Your "safe" money market asset is considered equal and paid out pro-rata, sharing the loss of those mutual fun…

That is impossible because each Vanguard mutual fund is a distinct legal entity. Assets cannot be moved between funds. See Vanguard safety for more details: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Vanguard_safety

Re: Apple pulls plug on Goldman credit-card partnership

#232
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amex’s business proposition to sellers is “we charge high fees but a lot of rich people have Amex so you (the seller) should suck it up and accept us anyway” Sure that works if you’re selling perfume or handbags, but if you’re a family restaurant then rich people and regular people eat the same quantity of food, your margins are low, why accept it? Moreover Amex is pretty rare outside of certain markets. If only fore…

Whelp, here in Germany many Starbucks and McDonalds, as well as some restaurants(middle to high end) immediately decline(or block Amex payment at counter), though if I am a bit sneaky and use Apple Pay method they can't see it and sometimes actually work. The issue with other cards here(Germany) is, everything is fake credit, i.e. my Visa/MasterCard is just "Debit" and immediately books paid amount from my bank and s…

> My bank indeed issues a real MasterCard but the monthly fees are unreasonable added on top of my already expensive checking account fees and it has very crappy app where trying to temporarily (un-)block my card needs calling their support and waiting in line while amex app gives me these features immediately on app.

Get yourself an N26 account/card if it bothers you too much. It works as a Mastercard (still the "Debit" kind though), has no account fees and you can do basically everthing from within their app.

Re: Apple pulls plug on Goldman credit-card partnership

#233
post #116
post #8

Seemingly both sides have wanted out of this deal, earlier in the year there was another WSJ report with Goldman wanting to end it as well: > https://www.wsj.com/articles/goldman-is-looking-for-a-way-ou... The earlier story from June suggested Amex might take it over.

That would be cool. Amex support way better than GS that’s for sure. Would suck for retailers though. Amex fees among the highest when compared to other networks and issuing banks. On the consumer side, I tend to see Amex as not widely accepted. Especially drops when traveling.

Yeah, outside the US, plenty of shops outright refuse Amex.

Re: Apple pulls plug on Goldman credit-card partnership

#234
post #187
post #8

Seemingly both sides have wanted out of this deal, earlier in the year there was another WSJ report with Goldman wanting to end it as well: > https://www.wsj.com/articles/goldman-is-looking-for-a-way-ou... The earlier story from June suggested Amex might take it over.

My bet is more that GS wanted out, and Apple wants to save face because "the leads we brought GS have double the default rate of other cards" is a bad look for future partners.

> Apple wants to save face because "the leads we brought GS have double the default rate of other cards" is a bad look for future partners.

Pretty sure I must be misunderstanding you. Do you really mean to suggest that Apple's reaction to Goldman breaking up with them was to start briefing the press that they dumped Goldman first with the intention of somehow hiding or diluting the poor default performance of the card?

0. Do you mean charge off, or default, or delinquency? I think you mean charge off rate, so I'll address that, but let me know if not - you did say "default rate", which is almost always higher than net charge off (default is whenever a consumer fails to pay on time, net charge off is effectively bad debt hitting 6 months of arrears: after six months it's unlikely to be defrayed without debt recovery action). Anyway, assuming you meant net charge off:

1. Apple cannot possibly avoid disclosing the charge off rate of this program to potential partners during diligence. (Quite the opposite of a cover-up, the commercial agreement between Apple and any new partner will likely attempt to explicitly codify management's representations on this metric, and scope what happens if performance is not as described. Other than aggregate balance information I cannot think of a more important metric for an interested party to understand, nor one more likely to result in the demise of the agreement and fixed penalties for misrepresentation if it is presented deceptively.)

2. More importantly, the information you seem to think Apple is preoccupied with keeping out of the public eye appears to be publicly available in Goldman's SEC filings.[^1]

3. More importantly still, Apple is understood to have made several stipulations of Goldman at the outset of the deal which are likely to contribute to higher than average charge off rates: firstly, Apple and Goldman do not pursue debt recovery as aggressively as other card issuers, which is meaningful given that charge offs, unlike defaults, are judged over 6 months.

Secondly, Apple seems to have encouraged Goldman to "get to a yes" on lending to individuals who otherwise may not have qualified for a credit card. (Low credit scores, high risk demographics.)

These are likely to be points of negotiation with any new partner, but it's trivial to see why Apple card's net charge off rate (2.93%) is in line with subprime cards like Capital One (2.2%) rather than JP Morgan's 1.47% and BoA's 1.6% when you consider that they deliberately accept high risk profiles and deliberately avoid pursuing them as robustly as JP Morgan and co.

(BTW, saying "[Apple card customers] have double the default rate of other cards" seems misleading to me – I can only find one such example, and it requires me to round up to 2x, but I may not have the same data as you? I think this should at most be "some other cards", given that e.g. Discover is significantly higher than Apple at 3.5%…)

4. There's some evidence to suggest that net charge offs spike during the infancy of new lending programs like Apple card, because net charge offs spike when individual consumers get new credit cards (for a lot of reasons), before cohorts mature and a steady state performance is reached. (This is also a consideration in multiple predictive models aiming to forecast net charge-off rates.)

These are the good (to me) reasons that Apple is unlikely to be attempting to spin a yarn to the press to "save face".

Without any inside information, I can also see reasons to believe that Apple did terminate the relationship with Goldman proactively, although it seems to be indisputable that Goldman was attempting to exit the business:

a. It has been widely reported that the risk and ADM logic was so poor at launch that Tim Cook was unable to qualify for a card. This is not great for Apple's image.

b. There were multiple horror stories in the press about various forms of prejudicial evaluations: DHH's partner springs to mind. This is not great for Apple's image, particularly when they were preoccupied with making Apple card accessible to the widest possible range of consumers (i.e. high risk).

c. Goldman screwed up withdrawals so badly that Apple began issuing $100 "gifts" to people's accounts as compensation. This is not great for Apple's image.

d. Goldman's infrastructure is inflexible and Apple negotiated weird consumer-centric benefits (e.g. bills at the start of the month, not on a rolling basis: Goldman's customer support teams reportedly can't cope with this concentration of demand). Apple does not play particularly well with others on matters like this.

e. *Edit:* Totally forgot to add that Goldman's consumer credit division is literally being investigated by the CFPB "and other governmental bodies relating to investigations and/or inquiries concerning GS Bank USA’s credit card account management practices." Cool.

Finally, I'd say that Goldman's inner turmoil and urgent desire to exit its consumer businesses is another reason for Apple to want to get out early: consumer has been an unmitigated disaster for Goldman, racking up billions of losses/write-downs, prompting a very embarrassing strategic retreat and eroding much of shareholders' confidence in David Solomon.

I can't think of many reasons why Apple would want to continue the agreement through 2029, particularly given that Goldman somewhat publicly shopped the sale of the program to American Express.

Goldman Sachs is not very good at consumer banking and does not want to do it. That makes them a lousy partner for Apple's consumer banking proposition, and I suspect this story is exactly what it sounds like: Apple putting Goldman out of their misery.

[^1]: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/886982/0000886982230... p168, states the net charge off ratio on consumer credit cards to be 2.8%.

Re: Apple pulls plug on Goldman credit-card partnership

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amex as not widely accepted. Especially drops when traveling. Only nutters use Amex whilst travelling (or at least non-US nutters) The double-conversion gotcha is a real killer. Everything gets converted back via USD. So for example, if you have a EUR Amex card and you go to the UK, the AMEX flow is: GBP -> USD -> EUR. And they take, IIRC 3% from you on each leg of that double-conversion.

I don’t think this is universally true. I had a CHF Amex for years. Used it by in EUR and USD online and in person.

> CHF Amex

The Swiss Amex is a bit special anyway because its operated by Swisscard which is a JV between Credit Suisse and AMEX.

Re: Apple pulls plug on Goldman credit-card partnership

#236
post #189

Goldman Sachs’s customer service was surprisingly bad – I imagine that factor alone is a sufficient threat to Apple’s brand, worthy of terminating the arrangement.

Why did that surprise you? Goldman Sachs makes it money with anything but consumer banking after all. Genuine question.

This is what I'm asking... It's like going to the wholesaler and wondering why they don't have a nice pretty brick-and-mortar to buy from. GS doing consumer credit just seems like a large impedance mismatch in various levels.

Sorry... just musing on this topic because this is giving me a laugh.

Re: Apple pulls plug on Goldman credit-card partnership

#237
post #24
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be a bit of a detractor for me, Amex is not as widely accepted, especially when traveling in Europe. Mastercard is accepted virtually everywhere in the EU and UK.

I hate that it works this way, but perhaps an Apple-Amex deal is what is needed for businesses to start accepting Amex. Edit: typo

There's little incentive to change. Retailers also know their clients who use Amex, are aware how little it is accepted and are likely to have a backup alternative they can just use.

Re: Apple pulls plug on Goldman credit-card partnership

#238
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amex’s business proposition to sellers is “we charge high fees but a lot of rich people have Amex so you (the seller) should suck it up and accept us anyway” Sure that works if you’re selling perfume or handbags, but if you’re a family restaurant then rich people and regular people eat the same quantity of food, your margins are low, why accept it? Moreover Amex is pretty rare outside of certain markets. If only fore…

Whelp, here in Germany many Starbucks and McDonalds, as well as some restaurants(middle to high end) immediately decline(or block Amex payment at counter), though if I am a bit sneaky and use Apple Pay method they can't see it and sometimes actually work. The issue with other cards here(Germany) is, everything is fake credit, i.e. my Visa/MasterCard is just "Debit" and immediately books paid amount from my bank and s…

I prefer a debit cards. Makes it easier to track my spending, and no risk of overspending.

Plus, probably lower fees…

Re: Apple pulls plug on Goldman credit-card partnership

#239
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact the Apple card was a Mastercard and had no foreign transaction fees was largely the only reason I opened it, as I too find my Amex a pain in the ass in Europe. If it does become an Amex card, I will likely close the account.

no foreign transaction fees In an FX transaction, what is the difference between a trading fee and a wider spread? Nothing. (Why do people keep falling for this?) What you really want to see is a combined promise. For example: No fees, plus 1% or less FX spread on major currencies. (My preferred credit card promises that.) Honestly, it is very hard to pay a total of less than 1% on foreign transactions. Still, this i…

> Honestly, it is very hard to pay a total of less than 1% on foreign transactions.

I would argue that you are not looking hard enough if you're paying 1% on FX card transactions.

All you need is a multi-currency card from one of the Fintechs, that will get you down to 0.5% or less without any effort.

Of course if you're the sort of person who likes taking cash out of ATMs on holiday then you'll have to look harder, since there is usually a surcharge on ATM withdrawls. But even then its not impossible.

Re: Apple pulls plug on Goldman credit-card partnership

#240
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there's a /r/AppleCard on Reddit and it was full of examples of reps just making shit up. Completely false information pulled out of their asses.

People are worried over AGI, but I claim it's already here depending on which human population you compare against.

You can talk to a person and try to develop an understanding. You can’t fix a broken computer you don’t own.
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