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Light Table - a new IDE concept

chris-granger.com

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Re: Light Table - a new IDE concept

#231

Post by hristov »

ibdknox wrote: post #9
icey wrote: post #3

This is pretty exciting stuff. IIRC ibdknox used to work on Visual Studio when he was at Microsoft.

I did indeed. I used to be the Program Manager for C# and VB in the IDE. :) A number of the ideas presented here started brewing during my time there, but it took me a bit to figure out what the overall abstraction should be. I really love the drafting table parallel - it's especially interesting when you start thinking about what we can do with touch...

Some friendly advice - never state in writing that some ideas started brewing when you were with your previous employer.

Re: Light Table - a new IDE concept

#232

Post by seancron »

bjcy wrote: post #228
robomartin wrote: post #124

For years I've been bothered by the fact that we still use ASCII text-based documents to program. Having spent a good deal of time programing in APL, a language that uses symbols extensively, I'd like to think that I saw just how different things could be. Having said that, every time I've looked into graphical programming paradigms they almost always seem to fall apart or get in the way of translating ideas and thou…

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on LabVIEW, if you've ever used it: http://www.ni.com/labview/ . It's a graphical programming language with an emphasis on system design (for scientists and engineers) that uses a dataflow paradigm (amongst other things) and has a unique UI creation system. (Disclaimer: I work for National Instruments and my comments here in no way reflect the views of National Instruments and…

My experience with LabVIEW, for the brief amount of time I worked with it for our high school robotics team, was slightly frustrating. I liked the dataflow paradigm, and to some degree the dashboard system, but connecting and managing the "wires" was a pain. Especially since I'm more comfortable/faster with a keyboard than I am with a mouse.

It also seemed to be harder to read and understand the flow of the code, which made debugging a pain sometimes. I remember struggling to figure out why my code wasn't working, only to find out I had used 1 instead 1.0 as a constant. The only indicator of the data type was a thin colored border around the box.

LabVIEW seems to do a great job as a kind of Visual Basic for scientists and engineers, but I'd probably find it frustrating to spend any substantial amount of time programming with it.

Re: Light Table - a new IDE concept

#233

Post by rimz »

okay. i have a comparatively small pet project i work on in my free time, it's close to 60k lines of c++ code. now, please, tell me, how your "ide" is going to help me organize things better?

> Smallest unit of code is the function.

for what particular reason?

> Able to get instant feedback on code changes.

i've got 200 threads of execution in my fcgi module, how do you intend to eval that?

> Multiple editors with just one function in it. Show code in an "area of concern" not just in a file.

kinda interesting, but won't work really. usually you have quite a bunch of code, 100-200 lines in a function which is a regular business. put 10 of those on the screen and you've got enormous unmanageable pile of crap.

> The coding environment can show also results, app windows, graphics, other tools.

any specifics? but yeah, i must admit you can put fancy widgets on window panes lol

> Can save the configuration of the above. WOW!

Re: Light Table - a new IDE concept

#234

Post by rimz »

okay. i have a comparatively small pet project i work on in my free time, it's close to 60k lines of c++ code. now, please, tell me, how your "ide" is going to help me organize things better?

> Smallest unit of code is the function.

for what particular reason?

> Able to get instant feedback on code changes.

i've got 200 threads of execution in my fcgi module, how do you intend to eval that?

> Multiple editors with just one function in it. Show code in an "area of concern" not just in a file.

kinda interesting, but won't work really. usually you have quite a bunch of code, 100-200 lines in a function which is a regular business. put 10 of those on the screen and you've got enormous unmanageable pile of crap.

> The coding environment can show also results, app windows, graphics, other tools.

any specifics? but yeah, i must admit you can put fancy widgets on window panes lol

> Can save the configuration of the above. WOW!

Re: Light Table - a new IDE concept

#235

Post by rjmackay »

Love it. However the thing that often keeps me away from rich IDEs is that they so often only support 1 or 2 languages: so I get used to the nice features, then I'm stuck as soon as I have to switch language. If this took off, it would be amazing.

Re: Light Table - a new IDE concept

#236

Post by gruseom »

andrewflnr wrote: post #218
gruseom wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spreadsheets would be nicer if they had a coherent dataflow model. What do you mean by "coherent dataflow model"? (I'm working on these problems - hence all the questions.) This gives a column of constant values which are tweakable by tweaking just the first element. That's what a scalar variable looks like in a spreadsheet. Why not just put the value in a cell and reference that cell absolutely? With some visual tin…

Maybe by "coherent dataflow model" he means some separation between what's an input to any given operation, so you can see what data is going where and how instead of it being scattered all over the place. That's what I'd like, anyway. What it looks like to me is more like a program than a table, but with really good list/table entry and flow arrangement tools. That may just be because I'm a programmer. Can you share…

I'd be happy to discuss it offline if you want to email me (address in profile).

Re: Light Table - a new IDE concept

#237

Post by gbog »

robomartin wrote: post #124

For years I've been bothered by the fact that we still use ASCII text-based documents to program. Having spent a good deal of time programing in APL, a language that uses symbols extensively, I'd like to think that I saw just how different things could be. Having said that, every time I've looked into graphical programming paradigms they almost always seem to fall apart or get in the way of translating ideas and thou…

Text is still the best way too tell a story and programs are just that: stories. I would say that any language requiring a fancy IDE is doomed.

Re: Light Table - a new IDE concept

#238

Post by nbuggia »

I love it, when can I use it, and for what languages? I would recommend Kickstarter over YC because I expect Kickstarter would result in something I can use sooner :)

Thanks for pulling the video together, there are a lot of really interesting ideas in there!

Re: Light Table - a new IDE concept

#239

Post by mbrubeck »

kevinpet wrote: post #158
sehugg wrote: post #41

Whenever I get the chance to use a spreadsheet, I really enjoy it. I find it really satisfying to set up cascading functions and see them update in real-time. I'd like to see that experience translated to general programming. I'd like to update code and see the unit tests update automatically, and an understandable representation of the objects being manipulated.

"I'd like to update code and see the unit tests update automatically" I think you have that a bit backwards there. I want to write the tests and have my code automatically update to make them pass.

"Combinatorial Sketching" is a surprising technique that does something close to this:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/asolar/papers/asplos06-final.pdf

Re: Light Table - a new IDE concept

#240

Post by 6ren »

timdorr wrote: post #147
splatcollision wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but business should be product-based...

That's certainly true, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. Kickstarter will get you the funds to go out and build a cool product, but it won't tell you how to generate a model that's sustainable, teach you how to go to market, or even tell you if there's an available market at all.

Kickstarter tells you there's no market by not funding your project: it's a MVP. But KS seems hard unless you're already well known.
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