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Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

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Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#231

Post by jackmott42 »

baq wrote: post #48
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Batteries are heavy, expensive and we don’t have infrastructure to charge them at the required scale. I don’t believe hydrogen is the answer but methane cells could be… liquid energy storage is just so much more practical compared to alternatives.

>we don’t have infrastructure to charge them at the required scale.

Yeah we do, or to be more precise, we are having no trouble expanding the infrastructure at the same rate people are buying the cars.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#232

Post by nwiswell »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #197
_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen for cars is dead. However long haul flights, fertilizer, green steel, etc. very difficult to find a carbon free alternative that isn’t hydrogen.

For long haul flight, hydrogen's main use is going to be producing fuels that can actually go that distance. Hydrogen has a volumetric problem and it just isn't a great fuel for that reason. Even over short distances this is problematic. It just takes up too much space. It's about 2.5 x that of lng in both liquid and gas form. In liquid form, you need to cool it to a few degrees above 0 degrees kelvin, which makes it…

> Hydrogen has a volumetric problem and it just isn't a great fuel for that reason. Even over short distances this is problematic. It just takes up too much space.

Blended wing body designs may solve the volume problem. It's only intractable if you try to fit the same energy content into a modern airliner that was designed for Jet A.

Weight is the usual suspect in aerospace, and fuel weight significantly favors hydrogen over Jet A (factor of ~2), so a blended wing body design with a much larger internal volume wouldn't even have to have equal aerodynamic efficiency in order to be a suitable replacement.

To be clear, this is not a simple shift and will probably take decades, but it is merely an engineering challenge rather than a fundamental constraint.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#233

Post by serial_dev »

beachy wrote: post #104
asdff wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All it takes is a new pump at existing gas stations and what becomes more compelling to the consumer flips overnight. Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken. It seems like there's a lot lot less inertia to get consumers over that hurdle than the EV hurdle, where charge times are long and convenient chargers not a guarantee in…

> Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken. I don't know that people's cultural attraction to fueling at the gas station is high at all. After we got an EV I realised how much I had actually disliked filling the car. Smelly, every time an in your face reminder of the fossil fuels you are burning. Having to go in an queue. Having…

Isn't the long charging time an issue? After a quick search, Tesla needs 30 minutes to charge to 80% with superchargers and this is good for 300 kms. Assuming 120 kmh, this means that about every 2.5 hrs, I need to take a 30 min break.

With the old system, I fuel in 2 minutes and I can travel 600 kms on it or approx 6 hrs (assuming 50 litres fuel tank and 7.5 litres per 100 km, and 120 km/h).

(I don't have a car, and I'm open minded about EVs, just honestly wondering)

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#234

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

justapassenger wrote: post #189
downrightmike wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the hydrogen made today is made from fossil fuels, so they of course love that idea.

So is most of electricity. None of that matters for the future.

This is technically true, but only barely. In the US in 2022, renewables were 21.5% and Nuclear was 18.2% of total generated power (yes nuclear should be counted among renewables, oh well). That means nearly half of power generated is green compared to ~1% of hydrogen.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#236

Post by bryanlarsen »

LtWorf wrote: post #208
linkjuice4all wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (in the US) have very little hydrogen infrastructure but there's high voltage power lines basically everywhere - so it seems like hydrogen has the infrastructure and scaling issues. Batteries are indeed heavy - but so are portable hydrogen storage cell that don't easily explode or require liquid cooling. I agree with you that hydrogen isn't the answer but methane doesn't really seem to be either. Batteries and ele…

There isn't enough infrastructure to power all the eventual electric cars.

You're right, we'll need about 20% more electricity if we replaced all our ICE cars with electric ones. If we stop selling gas cars in 2035 then by about 2045 we'll hit ~99% electric cars.

Are you implying we can't increase our infrastructure by 20% in 20 years?

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#237

Post by contravariant »

SCAQTony wrote: post #221

Water is a greenhouse gas as is the methane infrastructure that will be used to create the hydrogen. I don't say this disparagingly, but an ignorant populace will fall for it, and that includes Congress.

I'm not too sure we need to worry too much about the additional water vapour becoming a problem. About a third of all sunlight that reaches earth is spent just evaporating water [1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Earth_Energy_Budget_with_...

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#238

Post by parineum »

g-b-r wrote: post #8

They've been doing it for twenty years, hydrogen allows maintaining a distribution network and *most of all* to keep using fossil fuels to generate it

This is true and is contrary to this headline/quote. The oil sector is lobby for hydrogen but the attribution of motive is off. They are lobbying _for_ hydrogen, not against EVs.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#239

Post by londons_explore »

katbyte wrote: post #230
candiddevmike wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is similar to fracking, no? Doesn't it have the same seismic/water table problems?

Yep. And it won’t be 100% efficient. The energy to capture and store the co2 is likely greater then the energy you get in hydrogen

CO2 reduces the viscosity of oil, and helps get more oil out of the oil well.

Even ignoring climate benefits, it's still worth pumping CO2 down the well for financial reasons alone - especially towards the end of the lifespan of classical oil wells.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#240

Post by zolbrek »

gtvwill wrote: post #21
deviantbit wrote: post #3

The electric car industry is spinning alternatives. Hydrogen is a much better alternative all around. You'll be able to convert existing cars much easier.

Why would you want to? Existing cars suck to work on compared to an electric. Ice needs too many parts it's inefficient for moving vehicles. Legit ditch all that running gear and give me hub motors on suspension arms. That's it. Don't need anything else. Ice vehicles gonna get squeezed out by economics. Why pay some Muppet a few k to pull a block out to do gaskets when for little more than removing a Tyre I could rep…

>Ice vehicles gonna get squeezed out by economics

You mean ICE vehicles are going to get squeezed out by regulations.

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