I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it • Hacker News Board

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#231

Post by shostack » Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 1:52 AM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #225

aurareturn wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“When governments permit counterfeiting or copying of American products, it is stealing our future, and it is no longer free trade.” - US President Donald Trump, commenting on China. Actually, the above quote is not Trump and not on China. It's Ronald Raegan on Japan in 1985. When a new economic threat rises, the US will use the same playbook- demonizing in media, accusations, turn the public against said country, ba…

Except China has required technology transfer and has been actively committing state sponsored industrial espionage for decades. Surely this isn’t news? I’m down with China as a competitor, but we have a strong division between state and industry and China does not. I don’t think a unipolar world is a good idea, and I’m glad for a resurgent China. But it’s absurd to put on blinders and believe forced technology trans…

Don't bother. These whataboutism accounts pop up all the time on stories like this.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#232

Post by shostack » Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 1:53 AM UTC

aurareturn wrote: post #205

Alupis wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not "same old rhetoric" if it is in fact true. There are many publicly known examples of Chinese Espionage, including fake "police" departments in SF coercing nationals and naturalized citizens alike to commit espionage. You don't have to take our word - you have the internet at your disposal and can locate this information freely. You are simply choosing not to.

[flagged]

You're.... Not denying that China does it though.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#233

Post by Tao3300 » Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 1:55 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #135

Tao3300 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because no programmer is going to sign that. They'll go somewhere else. Musicians and writers don't usually have as many options, if any.

Many programmers sign this. I directly know that at least two FAANG employers (and probably all of them), have extremely broad copyright assignment clauses in their employment agreements that claim ownership of every software you create, on or off the clock, using company equipment or your own equipment. And many people work for these companies. Whether these are enforceable or not doesn't matter because a lone devel…

Yeesh. Once again glad to be a 1X who doesn't work for a FAANG and has non-tech hobbies.

I would argue those are exceptional cases. Outside of these prestige brands, you get a lot more leeway.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#234

Post by LAC-Tech » Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 2:00 AM UTC

aurareturn wrote: post #208

ipython wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear I am no Trump supporter. Feel free to check my comment history if you don’t believe me.

You don’t have to be a Trump supporter. Both liberal and conservative media have been 100% anti-China since Trump came into power. Both sides use anti-China rhetorics to generate views and votes. The consequences trickle down to the opinions and views of the average HN poster.

If it makes you feel any better I've hated communist china for as long as I can remember, decades before Trump. Free Tibet!

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#235

Post by adastra22 » Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 2:01 AM UTC

bastawhiz wrote: post #25

tempaway85751 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... Nothing came of it, but I took the code and shoved it into my back pocket for a rainy day ... You can't really do this. Depends on your employment contract but code you write for an employer is usually copyright to them ... My first reaction was to publish the code on Github ... You can't really do that either.

I mean, I asked at the time, and I did it. If either company wants to start a legal fight over a pile of code that neither of them wanted that's old enough to be in elementary school, they know how to reach me.

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Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#236

Post by adastra22 » Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 2:03 AM UTC

geoelectric wrote: post #230

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you are claiming ownership of this code and by making it available on GitHub under an MIT license you are claiming that you have the right to do so. If I take that code and make a billion dollar business out of it, Box or Uber could then claim a share of it. That's the kind of things that companies do with the lawyers on retainer. I then sue you for falsely claiming that you own it. You are partic…

A spreadsheet UI didn’t relate to Box’s core business because Box didn’t sell spreadsheet UIs. Box could have had the author’s hobby project been adopted as a feature but explicitly chose not to. The author clearly owned that bit if they did it on their own resources and own time. In other words, you can write generally useful components and utilities on your own time, network, and equipment; license them to your emp…

Well, you are not a lawyer. OP specifically wrote the code to help Box with its business. That's cut and dry within the scope of an employment contract, under California law. This doesn't get a safe harbor exception.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#237

Post by School-Cotton » Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 2:05 AM UTC

Tao3300 wrote: post #233

ryandrake wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many programmers sign this. I directly know that at least two FAANG employers (and probably all of them), have extremely broad copyright assignment clauses in their employment agreements that claim ownership of every software you create, on or off the clock, using company equipment or your own equipment. And many people work for these companies. Whether these are enforceable or not doesn't matter because a lone devel…

Yeesh. Once again glad to be a 1X who doesn't work for a FAANG and has non-tech hobbies. I would argue those are exceptional cases. Outside of these prestige brands, you get a lot more leeway.

Plenty of average people work at faang, and anyway, these terms are also common at less famous companies.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#238

Post by adastra22 » Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 2:08 AM UTC

sebzim4500 wrote: post #57

migf wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also absolutely gob smacked at this. Will they care? Probably not. Are you putting yourself at the absolute mercy of them deciding not to care? Absolutely. I would have a hard time sleeping... like this would be like being in IT and knowing the backups were bullshit.

Is this a thing in the US? Here, if the code was written of your own volition outside of work hours then it's yours.

That's not what happened here though. For salaried workers everything you do that is related to your job is owned by your job. That's the default even if your contract doesn't state it. He may not have been directed by his boss to make the code for Box, but he did it with the intent of helping Box's business, as a salaried worker. That makes it Box's property.

But even if you are unconvinced of that, work was clearly done on it on company time at Uber, where it was deployed as part of Uber China's business infrastructure. That work is absolutely owned by Uber (with maybe also some claim by Box). Not owned by OP.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#239

Post by Tao3300 » Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 2:08 AM UTC

flaviut wrote: post #139

Tao3300 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because no programmer is going to sign that. They'll go somewhere else. Musicians and writers don't usually have as many options, if any.

> Because no programmer is going to sign that. I have. I got an extra $130k out of it. It's a work of art. Even this comment is a violation of the agreement, since I don't own the copyright to anything I do apparently, either in or out of the scope of my employment, so therefore I can't give Y Combinator a license to display this comment. I even talked to the company's legal team about the absurdity of the agreement…

That's hilariously evil. You should leave a logic bomb of anonymous hate speech to disclose as belonging to them in case they ever want to enforce it.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#240

Post by adastra22 » Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 2:10 AM UTC

migf wrote: post #74

sebzim4500 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a thing in the US? Here, if the code was written of your own volition outside of work hours then it's yours.

It depends on your employment agreement or contract. Most contracts I have seen say that any IP you develop related to what you're doing at work is the employers.

It only depends on your employment agreement in the other direction. Work done for hire is by default owned by your employer under federal law. For salaried employees it doesn't matter if it is done during working hours.

The employment agreement can give up this right for things not related to the company's core business, and I usually insist on that in my agreements. But that is not the default behavior.