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Asteroid ZTm0038 with a >3% impact probability

newton.spacedys.com

231–240 of 252 posts

Re: Asteroid ZTm0038 with a >3% impact probability

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To simplfy, let's assume you have perfect knowledge of everything else & that the only variable that matters is asteroids current position. By triangulating observations you have a point estimate. Due to calibrating your instruments in the past you know that they tend to have uniform additive noise that is the same in each dimension. Let's say it shifts measurements by up to 1km randomly. So the best guess you have i…

Given everything you said is true, under those assumptions 3% of those asteroids that we identify as being in said 2km box will hit earth, unless the forward simulation is wrong (implausible) or the measurement error distribution is substantially wrong (also seems unlikely). What your analysis is not touching on is the prior probability that an asteroid will hit earth (you collapse this to "any asteroid will either h…

I think some confusion here seems to come from the following interpretations:

-Then what does 3% mean? Surely it means "given the data we have, one in every 33 will hit" -Given everything you said is true, under those assumptions 3% of those asteroids that we identify as being in said 2km box will hit earth.

Both of these statements are false. The probability density is over our knowledge of the state variables/state space for this asteroid, not over asteroids. The hypothetical sample of asteroids is not drawn from the distribution I'm talking about.

Going back to the simplified example: With the uniform prior on the box, our probability means that 3% of the volume of this box would lead to an impact if an asteroid was centered at a point in that volume at this time of measurement.

It doesn't say anything about hypothetical realizations of this asteroid (it is not clear what this would be sampled from or what it means in a precise sense to repeat a 1 time event) and says even less about the sample of (nearly) independent asteroids observed in the past. The probability measure only describes the measurement uncertainty on properties of this particular asteroid. It is not conditioned on or related to statistics on impacts of "general asteroids".

But "presumably you need multiple measurements to predict a trajectory" and your notes about independence and uniformness being bad assumptions are absolutely correct tho. I agree 100%

My comment above is mostly an attempt to make a simple example to clarify what the probability measure being measured here is. It's not a physically realistic example :) and definitely doesn't make good assumptions about what information is needed and what error distributions that information would have! I don't do space and didn't want to make guesses

Calibration here would have to be over multiple measurements of the same asteroid (which my example doesn't touch on). Likely by predicting trajectories at different intervals and matching the likelihood of later observations.

Verifying multiple observations leading up to a 1 time event is a very different than, say, verification of simulations of an internal combustion engine design where measurements of a real world prototype can be conducted repeatedly and independently to learn/calibrate some fundamental properties or initial conditions like chemical kinetic coefficients and such.

For general interest/lectures/fun, the general field that studies how to push uncertainties forwards/backwards/calibrate a mathematical model and simulation is called "Uncertainty Quantification". Also not an expert lol, I was just surrounded by a bunch in my cohort

Re: Asteroid ZTm0038 with a >3% impact probability

#232
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between the 500km asteroid impact in the video, and a 400m asteroid impact is the difference between a man jumping, and a man jumping to the moon.

Yes, it is the difference between a sterilization level event and one that is probably survivable. But it would still be the most significant impact in all of recorded history and to get to a larger one you'd have to go back a long, long time.

Even a 400m land hit sounds pretty survivable for whole humanity, significant climate impact is expected beyond the 1km range?

Re: Asteroid ZTm0038 with a >3% impact probability

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the moon is moving slowly? About 1 km/second for an object that weighs ~10^18 tons at a distance of 300,000 km? Now think of what that kind of force would do on a much lighter object that moves faster.

I'm not sure I understand your point... The object mass does not impact its trajectory (unless it either touches our atmosphere or is so massive as to measurably change earth's orbit). The gravitational force earth exerts on the moon and some asteroid is also very different, because the force is proportional to both object masses.

Think 'gravitational slingshot' but without missing the planet. The object will change direction and accelerate into us. It could end up grazing the atmosphere or it could go from grazing the atmosphere or even non-impact to impact.

Re: Asteroid ZTm0038 with a >3% impact probability

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is the difference between a sterilization level event and one that is probably survivable. But it would still be the most significant impact in all of recorded history and to get to a larger one you'd have to go back a long, long time.

Even a 400m land hit sounds pretty survivable for whole humanity, significant climate impact is expected beyond the 1km range?

Yes, it would be survivable for humanity. But depending on where it would happen, how dense the impactor is and at what speed it is traveling the effects would nevertheless be quite serious. Imagine NYC or SF taken out like this (of course the chances of that happening are really small given their area relative to the total of the planetary surface):

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/201...

Re: Asteroid ZTm0038 with a >3% impact probability

#235
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes sense, thanks. However, it doesn't mean that the 3% estimate of the chance of impact was wrong at the time of initial observation given data available, and that still makes it a huge deal at that time. At minimum, it would seem to justify using the best available instruments to characterize the asteroid more precisely as soon as possible. If these large numbers happen so often that asteroids with initial i…

> This makes sense, thanks. It makes no fucking sense. There is 3% chance it'll be revised to 100% chance and 97% chance it'll be revised to 0% chance. Are you Yogi Berra? It'll be reported like possible hurricanes hitting landfall. If this has happed ~33 times then one will hit us. If it's 400m it will kill 200,000 people assuming Vox is reporting correctly - https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/7/26/8931776/near…

> If this has happed ~33 times then one will hit us.

There would be a ~63.4% chance that at least one would hit us if this happened 33 times. To compute this, take 1-(0.97^33). But I agree with your broader intuition that these predictions must be getting inflated.

Re: Asteroid ZTm0038 with a >3% impact probability

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a model that is poorly calibrated - you seem to be taking a software-centric concept far away from where it's useful. The uncertainty at initial observation is because when you first observe an object, you only have observations covering a tiny bit of the orbit, resulting in very wide error bars. The "model" (Newtonian orbital dynamics) is one of the most precise models we have. Doesn't help when the observa…

Unless one in every 33 asteroids that have 3% impact probability at some point in time actually impacts earth, there is clearly some unwarranted assumption in the error bar/distribution calculation. "The measurement data has noise" does not explain why the noise has a bias towards "the asteroid will hit earth" whereas reality so far has been biased towards "the asteroid will not hit earth". (This assumes that signifi…

> Unless one in every 33 asteroids that have 3% impact probability at some point in time actually impacts earth

There would be a ~63.4% chance that at least one would hit us if there were 33 such asteroids. To compute this, take 1-(0.97^33). I agree with your broader point though.

Re: Asteroid ZTm0038 with a >3% impact probability

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a model that is poorly calibrated - you seem to be taking a software-centric concept far away from where it's useful. The uncertainty at initial observation is because when you first observe an object, you only have observations covering a tiny bit of the orbit, resulting in very wide error bars. The "model" (Newtonian orbital dynamics) is one of the most precise models we have. Doesn't help when the observa…

Unless one in every 33 asteroids that have 3% impact probability at some point in time actually impacts earth, there is clearly some unwarranted assumption in the error bar/distribution calculation. "The measurement data has noise" does not explain why the noise has a bias towards "the asteroid will hit earth" whereas reality so far has been biased towards "the asteroid will not hit earth". (This assumes that signifi…

Most likely the estimation is conservative.

In many situations, erring on one side results in worse outcomes than erring on the other side. In our case, a false positive has pretty much zero consequences, while a false negative could wipe out the dinosaurs.

Re: Asteroid ZTm0038 with a >3% impact probability

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right! Yes absolutely! It's wrong because the measurements are suggestive of possibility, rather than certain of it. If we observe an asteroid that with two poor measurements is determined to be headed away from Earth, that's the end. Look no further. If we observe an asteroid with two poor measurements that has some significant chance of hitting, more and better measurements are made. Then very often those better me…

Then what does 3% mean? Surely it means "given the data we have, one in every 33 will hit". Since that empirically doesn't happen, it must be that "the data we have" has a very low prior probability of being real. In other words, the measurement noise seems distributed in a way that over-represents unlikely trajectories. Hence it seems that it would lead to more accurate predictions if the measurements and their unce…

Despite all the people coming out of the Woodworks with weird theories, my best one is that the 3% number doesn't take into account their entire measurement process and sampling.

It's is similar to P hacking.

Re: Asteroid ZTm0038 with a >3% impact probability

#239
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes perfect sense. Where it breaks down is if you put percentages on it. If you say the car is a 3% chance of hitting you, it doesn't and you repeat the process a thousand times, and it never hits you something is wrong with your math

You're standing in a four-lane road and see a car approaching. You're looking at an angle and the lanes are poorly marked, so you can't tell which one it's in. Your observation lets you estimate the chance you need to move at 25%. When it gets a little closer, you can tell at least which half it's on, the left or the right. Now your estimate is either 0% or 50%. Closer still and you tell which lane it's in, so now yo…

again, that makes perfect sense.

What wouldn't make sense is if you repeat this 1000 times and a car is never in your lane.

That means that something is wrong about how you are modeling the road and cars.

The claim that people are confused by is (asteroids with a 3% chance of hitting get the change revised to 0% more than 97% of the time).

Re: Asteroid ZTm0038 with a >3% impact probability

#240
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because Earth has gravity, and an asteroid that comes close enough can get deflected onto the planet even if right now it seems to be on a trajectory to miss it entirely. The closer they get and the lower the relative speeds the larger the chance that they will collide and that's not a linear relationship. Beyond a certain boundary impact is certain, then the question is what the time of the impact is and how…

I wouldn't expect earth gravity to affect it sufficiently enough to cause it to crash unless it was moving very slowly, but I'm not sure asteroids ever move that slowly?

We're not talking about the asteroid stopping with a screech of tires and then taking a hard left turn to crash into earth.

It's just that anything traveling through the earth/moon gravitational sphere of influence will have it's trajectory tweaked just a bit. How close to the center of gravity the pass is determines exactly how much of a tweak. There is a small section of space, we'll call it the keyhole, where if the asteroid happens to pass exactly through that area the tweak will result in a collision next time the asteroid comes around. That could be decades hence.

There could even be a case where an unlucky keyhole pass this time lines up another unlucky keyhole pass the next time to an eventual collision in the distance future.

The technology to nudge the asteroid just far enough to miss a critical keyhole pass is within the realm of possibility with today's knowhow. We just need to have these missions ready to go on short (order of a few months to a year) notice.

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