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Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

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Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#231

Post by grumpy_coder »

harles wrote: post #61
glimshe wrote: post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

There’s definitely a Marxist undertone to the whole thing. What I really don’t get is the conclusion which suggests tearing it all down. Why not build more “Ivy+” and attempt to lift others up rather than flip the table? Yeah, it’s a tall order, but much more practical (not to mention positive) than getting rid of top schools.

Meritocracy is not really Marxist. Marxism is more 'to each according to his needs' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_abi...

A Marxist tone would be more focused on getting rid of the elite class doing the owning things part. (which has proved difficult...)

Meritocracy is actually nearly as awful as aristocracy in practice. A better society would just be more equal across the whole population regardless of birth, merit or whatever. i.e. CEO pay is now 300 times average employee pay, something more like 5 times would be a very different society and still have room for some merit element And having wealth above a reasonable level shrink exponentially rather than grow exponentially through some kind of share ownership tax

Then Harvard just wouldn't matter that much

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#232

Post by nicwolff »

gonehome wrote: post #143
RugnirViking wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you have a link to the "admissions content that came out in the affirmative action SCOTUS case"? That sounds very interesting. I found a report on the entire case but its near 300 pages long

This substack quotes some of the relevant bits: https://colemanhughes.substack.com/p/10-notes-on-the-end-of-... Copying here actual conversation (revealed in the lawsuit) between admissions officers at UNC: “I just opened a brown girl who’s an 810 [SAT].” “If its brown and above a 1300 [SAT] put them in for [the] merit/Excel [scholarship].” “Still yes, give these brown babies a shot at these merit $$.” “I am reading…

Well, that's not one conversation, except for

    “perfect 2400 SAT All 5 on AP one B in 11th”
    “Brown?!”
    “Heck no. Asian.”
    “Of course. Still impressive.”
those are selected comments from different chats.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#233

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #221
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good long term historical view, and provides some hope. However, the current court composition is what we face today, and there are members who will likely be on the court for 30 years or more. While the historical picture is more encouraging, it doesn't negate the significance of the current makeup.

I’d challenge that the person as an individual is more important than where they went to school. Perhaps there are others who were excluded due to not having gone to Harvard along the way, and in some abstract sense that’s unfair, but in a very real sense your school doesn’t make the person, the person is the person and they went to a school. I am curious if any of the justices are legacy students or if all were admi…

There's a somewhat solid argument that law school is of massively diminished relevance for SCOTUS than it is for, say, a fed appeals court judge. You can (and do) have very knowledgeable clerks providing appropriate factual legal guidance, but most SCOTUS decisions, by the very nature of the court, are not really tied into "what the law is".

The core problem here, which TFA outlines at some length, is that while there is nothing particularly wrong with wanting "the best people for the job", it isn't clear that Ivy+ education is the right metric/gatekeeping to use for this task.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#234

Post by rayiner »

tristor wrote: post #117
ta8645 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would Ivy schools pass your children over?

Nobody ever openly talks about it, but the East Coast Ivies are still heavily WASPy, and it's largely due to things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Register Basically, if your family name isn't in that list, you have a massive reduction in your probability of being accepted, regardless of merit. If your name is in that list, then you likely will be accepted regardless of merit.

People don’t talk about it because they don’t have the vocabulary to talk about it. We act like the descendants of English/Dutch north-easterners, who profiteered from slavery (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/04/slavery-probe...) are in the same group as German immigrants who came to the Midwest as indentured servants or Italian immigrants who came here in the 20th century. The false concept of “white people” totally obscures the fact that there are different groups, with different histories, origins, and cultures, who are very differently situated.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#235

Post by lwelyk »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #120
anonymoushn wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One may as well comment that they don't see what the big deal is with racism or with having one citizenship instead of another

I think that’s fairly extreme. I don’t think structural racism and Harvard are analogous, I grew up in eastern Tennessee in a time of extreme racial strife and saw things with my own eyes and felt the reality of things you likely only saw on tv or read about. Comparing rich kids going to rich kid schools and living rich kid lives to people being terrorized in their homes for being born and watching their friends hung…

Agreed, but the current class of rich people exist only within the context of those terrible racist things happening. Generational wealth was impossible to achieve for entire races of people, redlining isn't even that old. It's related.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#236

Post by laidoffamazon »

BearOso wrote: post #144
commandlinefan wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "lets all be poor" As the parent of two exceptionally-achieving children who were rejected from the "elite" colleges - I've become a lot more sympathetic to the mindset behind this line of thinking. My kids literally couldn't have done more or tried harder - since kindergarten - than they did. They both graduated valedictorian with perfect GPAs, scored in the top 99% of the SAT, did sports, did clubs, volunteered,…

I totally agree that the legacy and nepotism needs to be dropped. But there's some caveats to consider: * It's partly about where your kids graduated valedictorian with perfect GPAs, etc. I was considered "gifted" in my district, but I would be below average in the greater scheme of things. * Top 99% of SAT is nothing. I read somewhere that 60% of Ivy applicants have perfect scores. * It depends on the major they int…

> but I would be below average in the greater scheme of things.

Which scheme of things is this?

> Top 99% of SAT is nothing.

I got 99pct on my SAT too (1500/1600). I didnt have a chance at a top school. What do you suggest people like me do now? I went to an undergrad with a 50% acceptance rate, not exactly UIUC CS. I can't sleep most days because I don't feel like I have anything to hope for.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#237

Post by Balgair »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #8

I find the Harvard angst interesting. I’ve never once felt someone else going to Harvard impacted my life in any way whatsoever. I’ve advanced further than everyone I know that went to Harvard in my career and not once did someone wink at the Harvard guy and pass me over. I’m sure it happens, and I’m sure there are secret clubs I don’t get invited to (well the Harvard club is pretty nice and I was invited there by a…

These articles tend to show a divide in the HN community (speaking in broad terms here, HN is incredibly diverse).

One one hand, there are people that love coding, or are not from the US, or have made themselves successful, or generally don't care about fitting into molds, etc. Think those Kevin-Kelly greybeards in the back sever rooms that know everything and don't really care about the pata-gucci. The guys that used to go to Def-Con and Burning Man when it had guns.

On the other hand, you have people that really really care about FICO scores, about planning for the future, about daycare ratings, about where to put the active cell in an excel sheet when you send it to a client, etc. These are the people in the front of the office who network like crazy and will jump to another company at a whiff of an extra 1/2 percent of bonus. They are the guys that see the eggshell white with Romani type, and think it's really something.

The world needs both types of people, full stop. We need scaffolders and detailers. But it's the second type of person that really cares about what Harvard is doing. It's okay to let those people hack away in a comments section and not have a clue as to what they are 'wasting' their time on. It's their boat, they row it like they want to.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#238

Post by monktastic1 »

blitzar wrote: post #185
monktastic1 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you can see the difference between having domain expertise and having association with a particular brand?

The company was (lab based) biotech - zero maths needed - but management liked the way mathematicians think. Their brand / religion was maths and it beat out domain experience every time.

Do you really think the way someone thinks is just a brand? That the ability to think mathematically is... a religion? I think our worldviews are too far apart for us to make sense to each other here.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#239

Post by amluto »

lapcat wrote: post #170
amluto wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “Harvard exists to make society less meritocratic” idea is repeated a couple of times, and the article doesn’t seem to make any argument at all that it’s correct. An alternative hypothesis, entirely consistent with the author’s arguments, is that Harvard exists to educate its students (and to do research and have fancy sports and pretty buildings and cultural events, etc), that it’s quite good at this but not nec…

> its gating function developed over time and is unfortunate. It seems like you're mistaking the article for some kind of historical origin hypothesis? Harvard as it currently exists has the function of making society less meritocratic, while society continues to subsidize Harvard in various ways. How Harvard came into existence originally and its function in the 17th century are not particularly relevant to the argu…

No, I’m reading the text of the article as written. It says:

“Harvard would still be an organization designed to reduce meritocracy…”

“Harvard exists to make society less meritocratic”

These are statements about Harvard’s purpose or intent, not about its effect. And I think it’s more likely that the original intent, as well and the present intent of those involved, is to foster meritocracy: admit the best students (for some, fairly clearly extremely flawed, concept of “best”), give the best ones the best grades (again, there are flaws here), and hopefully let the best ones succeed.

The article argues that it fails at this, and perhaps even that it can’t succeed, but the article states, without justification, that it was not intended to succeed.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#240

Post by laidoffamazon »

glimshe wrote: post #208
laidoffamazon wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having managed over 100+ people, I can say that on average the people from better institutions are better employees - even though I have managed amazing people without college degrees and bad people with amazing degrees. The top schools can be pretty darn great, Harvard being just one of them. What do you recommend those of us who didn't get into any top schools do then? If clearly we're destined to be inferior for…

I don't think so, but life will be harder. Life is harder if you are born poor. I graduated from an unknown university (in the US) overseas, so I started in lower places and climbed my way up through hard work, study, luck and skill development (which include social skills). You are not destined to be inferior, but if the cards are not stacked in your favor, you will just have to make up for it somehow.

> you will just have to make up for it somehow.

I'm 27 and make ~$300k a year. When or even how can I make up for it? I'm clearly behind the people at Ivy+ schools right now.

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