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The past is not true

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Re: The past is not true

#231

Post by pdonis »

gochi wrote: post #187
pdonis wrote: post #171

The article's main point is that you can change the story, but the actual example he gives is a change in the facts --the actual facts weren't what he thought they were. That is why the story changed--because he found out that the actual facts weren't as bad as the "facts" he had previously believed were true. So it's not true that "the actual facts are a small part of the story". They are the story; you can't change…

>actual facts You see how quickly you are to believe these are the "actual facts"? That's how quickly they were to believe their "actual facts" as well. That is the story. Not the facts. What we tell ourselves, what we tell others. This is why they brought up memories, an unstable collection of flashes in our mind, and we use these to craft a story. The story has changed, and will continue to change, you're in the pr…

> You see how quickly you are to believe these are the "actual facts"?

I am taking the author at his word that when he reports something as fact, he is not lying. If you think he's lying, then obviously we're not going to find any common ground here.

> We aren't talking about observed realities (she is going to the park, I am eating an ice cream)

Um, yes, we are. The woman was not permanently disabled, although he previously thought she was. That's not a "feeling", "thought", "flash in the mind". It's a fact. Unless you think the author was lying.

Re: The past is not true

#232

Post by femiagbabiaka »

mrguyorama wrote: post #198
amp108 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what's inside Mark Wahlberg's heart, but let's suppose it's someone whom, for the sake of argument, we know truly regrets their actions: what are they supposed to do if another person doesn't forgive them?

Accept that sometimes when you do a bad thing that permanently harms someone else you don't deserve forgiveness (not everyone is christian FFS) and it's not wrong for that to follow you around forever. If that makes you uncomfortable, too fucking bad, don't irreversibly blind someone.

This is basically the raison d'etre of the American justice system today. Of course, I also think it would be nice if someone who committed hate crimes was justly punished for it, but stepping back from this specific example, I think the bloodlust around what constitutes a "just punishment" goes too far in most cases.

Re: The past is not true

#233

Post by pdonis »

gtirloni wrote: post #188
gochi wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>actual facts You see how quickly you are to believe these are the "actual facts"? That's how quickly they were to believe their "actual facts" as well. That is the story. Not the facts. What we tell ourselves, what we tell others. This is why they brought up memories, an unstable collection of flashes in our mind, and we use these to craft a story. The story has changed, and will continue to change, you're in the pr…

So both of them based their story on flimsy/incomplete evidence and they keep reshaping their stories. If only there were an objective reality to know which car was in the wrong. /s

> If only there were an objective reality to know which car was in the wrong.

That's not what I was referring to as a change in facts. The change I was referring to is that he thought the woman was permanently disabled, but then found out she wasn't. That's the key fact that enabled both of them to change their stories about what happened. The fact that the woman also believed the accident was her fault was a nice bit of icing on the cake, but it wasn't the key fact.

Re: The past is not true

#234

Post by mrguyorama »

hef19898 wrote: post #15
ttonkytonk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History is true, but the history anyone knows is selective, a mental model, often guessed or interpreted, and usually secondhand information.

The worst historical accounts, if lookrd at without context, are first hand ones... Those are the most selective and subjective takes you can have.

Which is why nobody considers it good practice to do anything with a SINGLE first hand source.

Re: The past is not true

#235

Post by mrguyorama »

narag wrote: post #52

I love HN but, let's be honest, we are often tone-deaf. Very much. When the author writes "the past is not true", he's not trying to make a Physics or Epistemology point of any kind. He's just telling that we torture and limit ourselves with things that no longer matter or, in this case, never happened. The anecdote might not be what you wanted to read or what would have fit the "message" best, but real world stories…

Then his example is so garbage as to be worthless. He DID DO SOMETHING OBJECTIVELY BAD by driving recklessly and harming someone else. It doesn't matter after that point what narrative is spun by who, that reality happened. You don't get to absolve yourself of guilt by pretending actually it usually ends up better than you remember"

Re: The past is not true

#236

Post by cayblood »

mrguyorama wrote: post #198
amp108 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what's inside Mark Wahlberg's heart, but let's suppose it's someone whom, for the sake of argument, we know truly regrets their actions: what are they supposed to do if another person doesn't forgive them?

Accept that sometimes when you do a bad thing that permanently harms someone else you don't deserve forgiveness (not everyone is christian FFS) and it's not wrong for that to follow you around forever. If that makes you uncomfortable, too fucking bad, don't irreversibly blind someone.

One of the profound contributions of Christianity, corroborated in other wisdom traditions, is the assertion that every single one of us ignorantly does irreparable harm to others in the course of our lifetimes. Recognizing this is the beginning of wisdom, and figuring out how to live life in light of this reality has been the driving force behind many different philosophies and religious traditions passed down over the ages. Pretending other people are the problem is the problem. Of course, that doesn't justify gross negligence, but the human ego is very good at dismissing selfish, entropy-increasing behavior as harmless. May I humbly submit that the approach you suggest here is incomplete.

Re: The past is not true

#237

Post by chad1n »

Once, my physics teacher from high school told the class that the only history we should "trust" is the one that we rationally felt and maybe, the one that was told by our parents, while the other historical "facts" are just the result of tons and tons of interpretations of random people that you end up taking as universal "truths".

Re: The past is not true

#238

Post by pharrington »

amp108 wrote: post #183
metacritic12 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think misanthropes aren't being enabled by articles like the above. Many of them honestly don't care deep down about the damage they do. Others like Mark Wahlberg just "forgive themselves" for blinding a neighbor as a teen, even if their actual victim doesn't forgive them, so they can feel better about themselves mentally. https://time.com/3623630/mark-wahlberg-pardon/

I don't know what's inside Mark Wahlberg's heart, but let's suppose it's someone whom, for the sake of argument, we know truly regrets their actions: what are they supposed to do if another person doesn't forgive them?

He did real harm that his victim did not forgive, so he's supposed to hold that. You're not supposed to ask the governor for an official pardon, erasing his crime from the criminal record.

edit: "“My hope is that, if I receive a pardon, troubled youths will see this as an inspiration and motivation that they too can turn their lives around,” he writes." Yeah, I DO NOT believe the world famous multimillionaire needs a governor's pardon to help kids.

edit2: given the wikipedia article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36805073's links to, it seems like Wahlberg himself now doesn't believe he should have tried to obtain a pardon.

Re: The past is not true

#239

Post by allturtles »

metacritic12 wrote: post #166
miiiiiike wrote: post #134

He did the right thing by seeking her out to apologize. The rest doesn’t hold water. “There’s a small chance that the chaos and ruin I’ve visited upon others may not be as bad as as those people made me think. Thanks, I knew my negligence/malice wasn’t that big a deal.” The worst people that I’ve ever met would love for that to be true. They’ll stab people in the back or work to damage people’s careers and when you c…

I think misanthropes aren't being enabled by articles like the above. Many of them honestly don't care deep down about the damage they do. Others like Mark Wahlberg just "forgive themselves" for blinding a neighbor as a teen, even if their actual victim doesn't forgive them, so they can feel better about themselves mentally. https://time.com/3623630/mark-wahlberg-pardon/

Wikipedia says he didn't actually blind the victim[0].

If true, this is fitting given the context of the OP.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Wahlberg#Legal_issues.

Re: The past is not true

#240

Post by hef19898 »

nathan_compton wrote: post #211
weare138 wrote: post #203

The past is real. Your memories, feelings and interpretations of it may not be. Reality is not subjective. You are.

Because of quantum mechanics this is a genuinely open philosophical question. The equations which time evolve the wave function are time-symmetric, which means that even if you know the current state of the universe's wave function somehow, you still only get a probabilistic projection for the state in the past. I think this leaves open the genuine physical possibility that the past does not exist in the same way tha…

We are not living in a Star Trek / MCU multi-verse so.
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