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Kevin Mitnick has died

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Re: Kevin Mitnick has died

#231
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "hacker" describes someone skilled at tricking systems into doing what they can't. Mitnick was not only one of the first popular hackers he also had many famous exploits. His arrest was a major rallying cry for the hacker community at large (now known as the overly corporate "infosec community"). There's no redemption arc. You do not need to do what society considers "good" to be considered righteous. There'…

> There's no such thing as objective moral and ethical good. I'm curious how your framework handles some particularly unpleasant examples. E.g., is there nothing universally wrong with what Hitler / Mengele did to Jews? Or how about raping, torturing, and then killing toddlers? I have trouble accepting an ethics in which there's no real basis for telling such people that what they're doing is genuinely wrong. (I apol…

Just because a large number of people agree something is bad does not make it objective.

You can of course pick examples 99% of people agree with. Hitler is bad, killing kids is wrong, beating your wife is bad, Mao killed millions, stalin killed millions, etc. This still doesn't make these objective. Just agreed upon. An objective system is one in which there is no other possible answer. I'm am sure we can find at least one person for each example of these whose moral and ethical system is consistent with the tyrant's behavior. It runs afoul of society at large and generally how we expect people to behave. But it is still subjective. Whether it deserves respect is what I think you are conflating objectivity with.

Take a less inflammatory (but still inflammatory) example: dropping the nuke on Japan. Was that evil? On one hand it's true it killed hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. However, on the other hand it stopped an unnecessary blood bath that could've killed millions more. You would be neither right, nor wrong, if your moral and ethical system agreed or disagreed with this behavior. For you and me we have the upside of hindsight to make a final call.

All right and wrong is dictated by a moral and ethical system. What I consider wrong is my subjective view of morality and ethics. Just because society often agrees with me because I am a polite member of society does not suddenly make it objective. Society has a commonly agreed upon moral and ethical system but it does not make it right for every single case. If you really wanted to corner me you'd have brought up abortion. But, in fact, abortion is the perfect example of a subjective interpretation of morality and ethics. What a religious person might refer to as the laws of man. In the case of Kevin Mitnick, I do not see him as a criminal. I see him as a victim of a system that failed to understand computers. You may disagree. Your opinion is as valid as mine. But to drive home we've talked about, the hacker community at large has a moral and ethical framework consistent with Mitnick's behavior. That makes you the odd man out.

Re: Kevin Mitnick has died

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I remember which book I read about Mitnick (and others). I developed a strong dislike for Mitnick, however. As others have said, he came across as an adolescent with an over-sized ego. More "Jackass" than "Silicon Valley". Although I'm sure he's not the only "hacker" for whom illegal entry into computer systems gave him a sense of self-importance. No thanks. Edit: yeah, probably was "Cyberpunk: Outlaws and Hac…

Eh, social engineering was and still is a major component of infosec, right? He was very good at that segment of the industry ("penetration testing" via social engineering).

Manipulating people is more interesting in some ways than exploiting a bit of badly written software because while I write terrible code all the time, I could fix it too but there's no patching our stupid stupid brains. We can try to be more careful, and avoid falling for things others have already, but the flaws are still there just waiting for the moment our guard is down.

Re: Kevin Mitnick has died

#233

When Kevin first found out he had Cancer, the doctors gave him "weeks". But you know Kevin -- he refused to accept his fate and found the top doctors in the world, tried experimental procedures and was able to get himself all the way into remission just 11 months later. It was incredibly inspiring, we all thought he had yet again beaten the system. It's tragic how the last 10 weeks played out, he fought all the way u…

[deleted]

Re: Kevin Mitnick has died

#235
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no such thing as objective moral and ethical good. I'm curious how your framework handles some particularly unpleasant examples. E.g., is there nothing universally wrong with what Hitler / Mengele did to Jews? Or how about raping, torturing, and then killing toddlers? I have trouble accepting an ethics in which there's no real basis for telling such people that what they're doing is genuinely wrong. (I apol…

Just because a large number of people agree something is bad does not make it objective. You can of course pick examples 99% of people agree with. Hitler is bad, killing kids is wrong, beating your wife is bad, Mao killed millions, stalin killed millions, etc. This still doesn't make these objective . Just agreed upon. An objective system is one in which there is no other possible answer. I'm am sure we can find at l…

> Mao killed millions, stalin killed millions, etc. This still doesn't make these objective.

Apologies for the pedantry, but these two are objective; calling them wrong/bad would be subjective.

> Society has a commonly agreed upon moral and ethical system

We do?!

Re: Kevin Mitnick has died

#238

When Kevin first found out he had Cancer, the doctors gave him "weeks". But you know Kevin -- he refused to accept his fate and found the top doctors in the world, tried experimental procedures and was able to get himself all the way into remission just 11 months later. It was incredibly inspiring, we all thought he had yet again beaten the system. It's tragic how the last 10 weeks played out, he fought all the way u…

Looks like he died from pancreatic cancer. This cancers always reminds me of the Last Lecture by Randy Pausch. He was a CMU professor who also died from pancreatic cancer 15 years ago. https://www.cmu.edu/randyslecture/ Here’s an HN discussion from a few years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24972377

I remember that lecture very well and thought about it a few days ago.

Re: Kevin Mitnick has died

#239
post #235
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because a large number of people agree something is bad does not make it objective. You can of course pick examples 99% of people agree with. Hitler is bad, killing kids is wrong, beating your wife is bad, Mao killed millions, stalin killed millions, etc. This still doesn't make these objective . Just agreed upon. An objective system is one in which there is no other possible answer. I'm am sure we can find at l…

> Mao killed millions, stalin killed millions, etc. This still doesn't make these objective. Apologies for the pedantry, but these two are objective; calling them wrong/bad would be subjective. > Society has a commonly agreed upon moral and ethical system We do?!

> We do?!

Yes, generally it's the legal system we live under. When you boil it down laws are technically just an encapsulation of the larger view society takes on issues of morality.

Now, you may not agree with every law. I don't. But I think most people would agree stealing, killing, etc are bad. This is sort of what I was getting at with a commonly agreed upon moral and ethical framework. People expect you not to kill from, or steal from them, or whatever else. If someone killed your son/daughter/wife/husband/etc your framework might justify seeking revenge. You'd run afoul of societies agreed upon framework but consistent in your own. Does that make you evil? Not necessarily. Perhaps society would think you are though. It's interesting when you think about things that way. How far afoul of the agreed upon framework can you run before you end up having more people hate you than love you.

Re: Kevin Mitnick has died

#240
post #226
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the parent comment.

I on the other hand, don't understand why that first comment brought up children at all. Did Kevin have his first kid at 57?

The third sentence of the linked article tells us that his wife is pregnant.
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