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Proof you can do hard things

blog.nateliason.com

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Re: Proof you can do hard things

#231

Post by constantcrying »

jodrellblank wrote: post #230
constantcrying wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you cannot justify to children why you force them to sit in school for hours every day you shouldn't be surprised by the consequences. Nobody told me why I should learn about ancient history or 20th century literature. >usually related to things people encounter every day. Basically nothing I did in school had anything at all to do with things I encountered every day. I played video games and hung out with friend…

> " Nobody told me why I should learn about ancient history or 20th century literature. " Did you ever ask? I assume not, since you claim nobody ever asks that question about ancient history - so why would anyone have told you? If you did ask, doesn't that rather undermine your claim that nobody ever asks this question about other subjects and people only ask it about mathematics?

>Did you ever ask?

No. But I also didn't question its value.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#232

Post by joedevon »

DarkNova6 wrote: post #206
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because math is harder for most people. There is no difference between learning a name in history or in biology, or some workflow. But math reasoning really filters out people in a way nothing else does. All other topics just require memory and basic reasoning. Even physics mostly is hard because of math. And philosophy, mostly because of jargon and references. Otherwise, if you break it down, it's not that co…

> math reasoning really filter out people in a way nothing else does. Disagree. I say: Bad math teachers really filter out people in a way nothing else does. "Here is a list of rules which can be used in specific circumstances. I am not going to tell you why you would need them and the exam will feature several corner cases. Also, I will not provide any examples or detailed explanations because what would other peopl…

Perhaps teaching math in an accessible way is the real challenge. When I was a kid...a looooooong time ago...you were greeted with "Math Problems" on day one. Perhaps a better word than "problem" would attract more devotees.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#233

Post by bruce511 »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #151
szundi wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True when you happened to find just one of the soon best paying new activities. Catching butterflies would have worked out less awesome probably.

If you escape the employee mentality you can turn almost anything into a small business which provides value to the world. I really wish the world economy would be structured like this, with smaller entities taking more risk and responsibilities and less enormous corporations filled with people hating their lives.

The "employee mentality" as you put it has a lot of upsides. You get paid every month. You don't have to worry all the time about making payroll. Your day starts at 9, and ends at 5, what happens outside those hours is not your problem.

When it all goes tits-up, you just walk away. No responsibilities, no debt. Polish your resume, blame the result on "bad management" and move on to the next gig. Want to go to another country? - quit your job, and buy a ticket. No responsibilities, no debt, no nothing. Just pack your desk and walk away.

By contrast a small business employer (or a one-man-shop) doesn't get to go on vacation, answers the phone day and night, hustles each month just to keep the lights on, risks all their time and assets on uncertain outcomes. They get to work, look at the parking lot, and take on responsibility to make sure all those employees are paid at the end of the month - their families and their creditors are relying on you.

Even in the good times you're the one making decisions, deciding what risks to take, when to spend, when to save. All the while your employees tell you what you're doing wrong. And complain you're getting rich off their labor. While your bank manager refuses you a loan because you're "self employed". And you get to take personal surety for company debts and leases... Oh, and when cash is tight you're first in line to get short-paid.

Who wouldn't want to be a small business owner? It's a barrel of laughs.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#234

Post by yodsanklai »

constantcrying wrote: post #179

I really despise all the "why you should care about math" takes. The question is never asked about any other school subject and only mathematics has to justify itself that way. I had to learn about categories of plants and animals, interpret 20th century literature, learn about events from a thousand years ago, I did presentations on the demographics of European countries, how certain chemicals react and much, much m…

> somehow mathematics is the one field which needs to justify its own existence

I'm convinced that justification doesn't make students more motivated anyway.

That being said, justification is needed, not for the students, but for people designing syllabus. They require arbitrage because there are so many hours in a day.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#235

Post by TRiG_Ireland »

constantcrying wrote: post #189
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because math is harder for most people. There is no difference between learning a name in history or in biology, or some workflow. But math reasoning really filters out people in a way nothing else does. All other topics just require memory and basic reasoning. Even physics mostly is hard because of math. And philosophy, mostly because of jargon and references. Otherwise, if you break it down, it's not that co…

What I specifically dislike is the question "what am I ever going to use this for" or versions of it. Which I only ever hear about mathematics, but which can be asked about every other subject as well. Yes, math is hard and definitely not for everyone, which I think is perfectly fine. But arguing that something has no use to you, because the first time in your life you actually have to engage in complex logical think…

> What I specifically dislike is the question "what am I ever going to use this for" or versions of it. Which I only ever hear about mathematics.

I've often heard it asked of languages, specifically Irish.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#236

Post by SnowdustDev »

roel_v wrote: post #213
keerthiko wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IME a big part of this misdirection stems from school focusing on the mechanics of math, rather than the intuition of math. In the long run, the mechanics of math (how to do long division, or differentiate an expression, or expand a geometric series) are important only insofar as to help us model and predict and analyze the world, intuitively. However, students who do not intuitively see the power of mathematical int…

I've never taught mathematics but I think it's much harder to teach the intuition, and I also think that more people are capable of learning the mechanics than the intuition. So from the point of view of someone designing a methodology and curriculum - you have to design for scale. I have the same thing with learning languages: I despise focusing on the rules of conjugation and word order and rote memorizing rules, e…

Wholeheartedly agree about bootstrapping with vocab and learning through immersion. Eventually all the nuances with grammar and rules get understood implicitly with enough practice (at least to the extent I'm satisfied with). For me, it makes language learning a lot more fun and palatable

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#237

Post by costanzaDynasty »

I don't know anything about Calculus. My time is school was mostly spending a year in class studying to take a single test so that the school got more government money. But I will say that when a bunch of people online carry on about how hard something is, it makes me want to try it. Usually it turns out that what ever they were saying was hard or impossible is difficult and time consuming but not impossible. The hardest part is getting over how other people have built something up as impossible.

But perhaps my FU-mode is stronger than other peoples. Someone on here said I'd never work for a FAANG company, so I guess that's something I'll have to do just because. Not impossible.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#238

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

yakubin wrote: post #193
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US we'd reserve "mathematical analysis" (or more specifically, Real analysis) to the college level classes which involve writing proofs about the continuity of functions between sets of real numbers. You'd probably end up with a lecture on the mean value theorem here, and leave with the ability to prove it, among other things "Calculus" is the application of that theory without argument. It's an advanced high…

> In the US, you can probably pass calculus without writing a proof, but you can't pass mathematical analysis without at least understanding epsilon/delta proofs. In Poland we do those in high school. :)

In the US, our education system kind of sucks (:

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#239

Post by CodeSgt »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #212
DarkNova6 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> math reasoning really filter out people in a way nothing else does. Disagree. I say: Bad math teachers really filter out people in a way nothing else does. "Here is a list of rules which can be used in specific circumstances. I am not going to tell you why you would need them and the exam will feature several corner cases. Also, I will not provide any examples or detailed explanations because what would other peopl…

True. But even with the best teachers for every field, math or sport will filter out people way more harshly, and sooner, than any other field. You can smooth things out with quality teaching, but there is a human hardware limit, and you reach it sooner with those two. Many people don't like to hear it because their ego is bruised or because it goes against the idea that "everybody can do anything". This is wrong. Bi…

> This is wrong. Birds fly, fishes swim. There is nothing bad about either.

I have a hard time with this mentality. I would have agreed a few years ago perhaps, and do still agree that we all have our own aptitudes, but the level of absolution in a statement like this just isn’t really quite as applicable to humans in my opinion. There are things I never thought I’d be capable of that I’ve recently begun to excel at.

What I thought was a hardware limit turned out to just bug in my psycho-software that needed a patch. Obviously at the extreme end’s of the spectrum, the human hardware limit is very real. But for most (healthy) people, engaging in most activities, I believe that any perceived immutable barriers or obstacles are almost entirely psychological.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#240

Post by jameshart »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #212
DarkNova6 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> math reasoning really filter out people in a way nothing else does. Disagree. I say: Bad math teachers really filter out people in a way nothing else does. "Here is a list of rules which can be used in specific circumstances. I am not going to tell you why you would need them and the exam will feature several corner cases. Also, I will not provide any examples or detailed explanations because what would other peopl…

True. But even with the best teachers for every field, math or sport will filter out people way more harshly, and sooner, than any other field. You can smooth things out with quality teaching, but there is a human hardware limit, and you reach it sooner with those two. Many people don't like to hear it because their ego is bruised or because it goes against the idea that "everybody can do anything". This is wrong. Bi…

Different humans (in the 90th percentile at least, to eliminate the extreme outliers) are not equipped so vastly differently for mathematics or athletic activity as fish and birds. Thinking that some people can fly and some can swim and that’s just that seems very reductive.
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