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When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

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Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#231

Post by pierat »

grishka wrote: post #91
rmorey wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

else not be allowed in the App Store, a stick apple is more than happy to wield

It should be illegal for a device manufacturer to retain any kind of control over devices after sale. Some governments are finally realizing this. So no, this is not a viable solution in the long run. Besides, Android is a thing. I personally have never used an iPhone as my real phone precisely because of this — I can't install modded apps, I can't install pirated apps, etc etc. It's not okay to have to jailbreak the…

I've argued before that when companies retain control of the device after the sale, that it should not be legally classified as a sale.

It should be enforced as a rental.

Either I own my property and control my property, or it's not my property. If not mine, whose is it? All we need to look is who controls it then.

This is all first-sale doctrine stuff. And I don't believe any new laws need be made to enforce this.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#232

Post by jackson1442 »

H8crilA wrote: post #221
kubik369 wrote: post #206

I am surprised no top comment mentions this — on iOS, you cannot distinguish if you were granted a permission or not. As an example, if an app asks you for access to your photos, it will always get an array. The trick is that when you deny this permission, the array will be empty, so you cannot know if the user simply has an empty library or if he denied you access. I like it, simple and elegant. Naturally, in the ca…

How does that work for location? Also, an empty folder with photos is almost certainly implying lack of permissions. Very few people never took a picture.

You can also select a subset of pictures to grant the app access to, which makes the heuristic fall apart if you properly manage it as a user.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#233

Post by thih9 »

Is that practical though?

Apps could just accept that and break. Food delivery app could show suggestions from the fake island, social media app could let your friends know you’re 6383km away, calculator app might switch to local currency conversion, etc.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#234

Post by fmx »

progbits wrote: post #3

XPrivacy for rooted android could do this 7+ years ago and there are other modern alternatives (but I haven't rooted my phone for a long time so I can't vouch for them): https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacy Obviously that is not mainstream, I agree it should come built in. But then both Android and iOS allow bullshit like region-locked apps or preventing screenshots from DRM content, so good luck with that.

XPrivacy was great, but apps would regularly crash when I denied some permissions - so apparently it was not faking data well enough. It got so bad that I would never just click "deny", but always "temporarily deny" first. Then, if the app worked, I would deny permanently. If it crashed I'd have to figure out the minimum set of permissions I could get away with granting.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#235

Post by plagiarist »

H8crilA wrote: post #221
kubik369 wrote: post #206

I am surprised no top comment mentions this — on iOS, you cannot distinguish if you were granted a permission or not. As an example, if an app asks you for access to your photos, it will always get an array. The trick is that when you deny this permission, the array will be empty, so you cannot know if the user simply has an empty library or if he denied you access. I like it, simple and elegant. Naturally, in the ca…

How does that work for location? Also, an empty folder with photos is almost certainly implying lack of permissions. Very few people never took a picture.

I think they're just full-on mistaken, and it is possible for the app to distinguish between access levels: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/photokit/phauthori...

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#236

Post by ethanbond »

floomk wrote: post #211
ryandrake wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question! We actually asked Apple exactly this when appealing the AppStore de-listing. How come others can require an account and we can't? What was it about our app that made us have to spend the engineering effort to add a guest login (this was a disingenuous argument that I advised against, since we deliberately spent engineering effort to require the login)? Their response, not the exact wording since it was…

> We're reviewing your app, not theirs, so what they can do is irrelevant rules for thee but not for me Apple has never been fair with its review, sadly. > I would expect Apple's response to be "change it back". Companies should not have to bend over to apple's whims just to get their software in end user hands. Hopefully upcoming EU regulation will reign apple's overreach in a bit.

Or (1) is: it’s impossible to create codified rules that have no false negatives and no false positives and we’re smart enough not to act like it’s possible.

You know, this is how almost every rule system on the planet operates. Ultimately there’s an arbiter whose job is to look at the totality of the case.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#237

Post by codeguro »

marvin wrote: post #225
floomk wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're reviewing your app, not theirs, so what they can do is irrelevant rules for thee but not for me Apple has never been fair with its review, sadly. > I would expect Apple's response to be "change it back". Companies should not have to bend over to apple's whims just to get their software in end user hands. Hopefully upcoming EU regulation will reign apple's overreach in a bit.

You’re celebrating the possibility that EU regulation will remove Apple’s ability to enforce good user experience?

Apple doesn't get to dictate what constitutes a good user experience. Especially for me - that is my prerogative and mine alone.

So yes, I will be extremely happy with it. This opens doors to all kinds of software that can compete with one another, and if I don't like it, I can simply uninstall it myself.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#238

Post by fmx »

bdcravens wrote: post #7
codetrotter wrote: post #2

> When an app asks for permissions, the OS should not only let you answer yes or no. Every category should have a "yes, but feed the app fake data" option. A significant amount of people don’t even know how to forward an email. Imagine the havoc that would ensue when people try to use Google Maps for navigation, and they choose to feed it fake data because they don’t understand what it means. Google Maps: “Turn right…

Then make the setting a power-user opt-in, so that the uninitiated wouldn't even see the option.

No, the whole point of the original post is that a lot of users see (and use) the option, so that the app's database of personal data is full of rubbish.

I don't think the GP's scenario is realistic. A user would see that their location on the map is wrong before they even get a chance to begin navigation.

Besides, Google Maps already sometimes tells people to drive through roadblocks and locked gates and such (which it isn't aware of), so it already requires the driver to think for themselves to some extent.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#239

Post by furyofantares »

rollcat wrote: post #59
ryandrake wrote: post #27

I’m all for the “fake data” idea, but also: Apps should be required to gracefully handle the cases where users deny permission to access real data. I know last time I developed for iOS, it was Apple’s policy that apps cannot punish users or exit() the app in retaliation for them denying a permission. Apps must gracefully handle it and continue running. Also, and this was even longer ago, apps could not require users…

> it was Apple’s policy that apps cannot punish users or exit() the app in retaliation for them denying a permission. Meanwhile, WhatsApp still "punishes" users for denying contacts access by hiding everyone's names (only the phone numbers are shown), including for contacts that have their own names set in their own profiles. Facebook^W Meta is scum.

> Meanwhile, WhatsApp still "punishes" users for denying contacts access by hiding everyone's names

Huh, had no idea that's why I only see numbers.

If I do allow contacts, does it show the name from contacts, rather than whatever display name they chose?

If so then I guess that's kind of a "technically we need contacts to display names, which are resolved locally" deal. But Apple could push back "you're big enough to plumb a display name through, not just resolve locally, and deal with spam implications" if they wanted to take a hard stand.

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