Escaping High School • Hacker News Board

Re: Escaping High School

#231

Post by ModernMech » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 11:05 PM UTC

guy98238710 wrote: post #188

ModernMech wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, don't we all hate it when people come into our job and tell us how to do it? Parents love to think that because they have had one child (or maybe a couple), they know how to educate children writ large. Compounding that, most people went through the education system as students, so they believe they have insider knowledge as to how the system works. Usually their advice on how to fix the system is geared toward…

> Yes, don't we all hate it when people come into our job and tell us how to do it? Teachers apparently need to be told, because they spend YEARS teaching kids how to do arithmetic on paper instead of handing out calculators and focusing on high-level mathematical modeling instead. There are lots of such insanities in the curriculum, not to mention loads of propaganda (not a US citizen, but AFAIK there is a lot of pr…

Not to say anything about the merits of your idea, but do you have anything to back it up? I mean, I'm assuming you do, because this whole sub thread I started was about people who don't know what they're talking about telling others who know better what to do. And I presume your evidence must be very compelling, for you to feel confident in calling what others are doing for a living "insane" and "propaganda".

What I don't understand, though, is why you're not providing this very compelling evidence along with your comment.

Re: Escaping High School

#232

Post by ModernMech » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 11:09 PM UTC

starcraft2wol wrote: post #99

ModernMech wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, don't we all hate it when people come into our job and tell us how to do it? Parents love to think that because they have had one child (or maybe a couple), they know how to educate children writ large. Compounding that, most people went through the education system as students, so they believe they have insider knowledge as to how the system works. Usually their advice on how to fix the system is geared toward…

> come into our job and tell us how to do it? Many people practice teaching in a variety of settings. Their demonstrated ability has little correlation with their credentials. If someone gets stuck on an amateur plumbing or construction project, they call a professional. In other words, the professional competence is trivially demonstrable and applicable. Can you imagine needing a credentialed teacher to get you out…

> Can you imagine needing a credentialed teacher to get you out of a bind?

Incredible hubris to say such a thing, after we all went through a pandemic, during which teachers were expected to risk their lives and actually sacrificed their lives in service of keeping their communities running. That's all I have to say to you.

Re: Escaping High School

#233

Post by starcraft2wol » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 11:16 PM UTC

ModernMech wrote: post #232

starcraft2wol wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> come into our job and tell us how to do it? Many people practice teaching in a variety of settings. Their demonstrated ability has little correlation with their credentials. If someone gets stuck on an amateur plumbing or construction project, they call a professional. In other words, the professional competence is trivially demonstrable and applicable. Can you imagine needing a credentialed teacher to get you out…

> Can you imagine needing a credentialed teacher to get you out of a bind? Incredible hubris to say such a thing, after we all went through a pandemic, during which teachers were expected to risk their lives and actually sacrificed their lives in service of keeping their communities running. That's all I have to say to you.

That doesn't address the point. I also do not agree with that narrative.

Re: Escaping High School

#234

Post by solarmist » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 11:26 PM UTC

pandorable wrote: post #190

light_hue_1 wrote: post #32

Incredibly narrow minded advice for the privileged. > Maybe you go to a school in a poor area, or with a lot of violence, or far too many students for the teachers to pay any individual attention to; or, relatedly, maybe you’re required to spend a lot of time caring for siblings or parents, working a low-skill job, or holding your family together or preserving your safety in some way. Oh if only not being extremely p…

Hi, author of the post here - thanks for chiming in! Was hoping to hear from someone who had worked in or gone to a school like this. This part of the essay was admittedly the most guesswork-heavy; I included it because that seemed better than the alternative of not mentioning economic disparities at all, or of telling kids at poor schools they're resigned to doom. I'm guessing you're a teacher? If so, I'd be curious…

I’m one of the kids that “made it” out of these situations and it took me until I was over 40 and making FAANG money to START thinking in terms other than “not being like my dad” or “ending up poor”.

> preserving your safety in some way

Even a comment as small as this is assuming a lot in poor areas. The only safety I had was in my own head or in my STEM classes because I could immerse myself in them enough to forget about life outside them.

Look up the problems associated with complex-ptsd, childhood neglect and parentification.

It was all about racing as hard as possible away from where I was, not about looking forward in any way. For most of my twenties my timeframe in planning was weeks or months if I felt confident.

I just got lucky I got hooked on computers and had a couple teachers that praised me for that and math.

In fact, I nearly dropped out in 9th grade to work at a Burger King so I had access to some kind of money. Instead I called CPS and moved in with my narcissistic mother who was at least financially stable. But it was a coin toss at the time.

My first job was in a factory and then in the Army, I didn’t have a plan or wants other than stable living situation and enough money for basic bills.

Re: Escaping High School

#235

Post by starcraft2wol » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 11:30 PM UTC

ModernMech wrote: post #231

guy98238710 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, don't we all hate it when people come into our job and tell us how to do it? Teachers apparently need to be told, because they spend YEARS teaching kids how to do arithmetic on paper instead of handing out calculators and focusing on high-level mathematical modeling instead. There are lots of such insanities in the curriculum, not to mention loads of propaganda (not a US citizen, but AFAIK there is a lot of pr…

Not to say anything about the merits of your idea, but do you have anything to back it up? I mean, I'm assuming you do, because this whole sub thread I started was about people who don't know what they're talking about telling others who know better what to do. And I presume your evidence must be very compelling, for you to feel confident in calling what others are doing for a living "insane" and "propaganda". What I…

What evidence would satisfy you? If I produced a study I imagine this would not change your world view, especially considering it's your occupation.

Re: Escaping High School

#236

Post by starcraft2wol » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 11:33 PM UTC

ModernMech wrote: post #230

Scubabear68 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry, are you indicating you know my kids better than I do? The kids got “B”s because everyone who showed up got Bs. It was social promotion. This became painfully obvious when the first marking period scores in many classes was F and D in the private school. And was backed up by equally bad standardized testing scores.

No, I don't presume to know your children. But I am more qualified than you to compare them to other children, because that's part of my job (unless it's your job too, I dunno). Based on what you've told me, and that's all I have to go off of, your kids are above average. It's kind of wild to me that you're on here arguing with me that they're not. Kids who get A's, B's (even some C's); and do sports or music are wel…

> But I am more qualified than you to compare them to other children

Do you have any evidence that your qualification gives you better comparisons?

Re: Escaping High School

#237

Post by solarmist » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 11:41 PM UTC

pandorable wrote: post #193

dmvdoug wrote: post #144

> Maybe you go to a school in a poor area, or with a lot of violence, or far too many students for the teachers to pay any individual attention to; or, relatedly, maybe you’re required to spend a lot of time caring for siblings or parents, working a low-skill job, or holding your family together or preserving your safety in some way. The disadvantages of this case are obvious, but there are a few advantages too; the…

Hi, author of the post here. See my comment in response to light_hue_1 farther down – in the spirit of Cunningham's Law, I'd be curious about your answers to the same questions. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36630576 Would also be interested to hear from anyone else who's taught at or attended a high school that's poor or in a rough area, re: those questions.

> Copied from below.

I’m one of the kids that “made it” out of these situations and it took me until I was over 40 and making FAANG money to START thinking in terms other than “not being like my dad” or “ending up poor”.

My longterm plan was “to be an electrician or work with computers.” Which was the plan I formed in 1st grade. (It took until high school to realize I meant EE not electrician, but that’s how little the actual plan mattered.)

> preserving your safety in some way

Even a comment as small as this is assuming a lot in poor areas. The only safety I had was in my own head or in my STEM classes because I could immerse myself in them enough to forget about life outside them.

Look up the problems associated with complex-ptsd, childhood neglect and parentification.

It was all about racing as hard as possible away from where I was, not about looking forward in any way. For most of my twenties my timeframe in planning was weeks or months if I felt confident.

I just got lucky I got hooked on computers and had a couple teachers that praised me for that and math.

In fact, I nearly dropped out in 9th grade to work at a Burger King so I had access to some kind of money. Instead I called CPS and moved in with my narcissistic mother who was at least financially stable. But it was a coin toss at the time.

My first job was in a factory and then in the Army, I didn’t have a plan or wants other than stable living situation and enough money for basic bills.

Re: Escaping High School

#238

Post by solarmist » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 11:55 PM UTC

breckinloggins wrote: post #191

dmvdoug wrote: post #144

> Maybe you go to a school in a poor area, or with a lot of violence, or far too many students for the teachers to pay any individual attention to; or, relatedly, maybe you’re required to spend a lot of time caring for siblings or parents, working a low-skill job, or holding your family together or preserving your safety in some way. The disadvantages of this case are obvious, but there are a few advantages too; the…

> really coming face-to-face with the profound systemic and otherwise deep long-term issues kids in this environment have to confront Are there any good books on this topic that you would recommend? I don't expect you to write a point-by-point rebuttal to every blog post like this that comes along, but I'd sure love to do some of that work myself and well-regarded popular books on the subject are a good place to star…

The systemic issues start at home. Not having safety or stability in their home life leads to almost all of the negative adults outcomes you hear about.

Cptsd, parentification, and physical/emotional/social neglect (abuse too, but it’s more obvious than neglect) are the biggest things to solve based on my lived experiences.

Solving those would solve most of the “school” issues I believe.

The next level would be at the “nickeled and dimed” [0] level. Poor opportunities and little mobility is all most of these kids can look forward to. So instead they spend their downtime distracting themselves from how shitty their lives are or will be.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed

Re: Escaping High School

#239

Post by solarmist » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 12:01 AM UTC

somsak2 wrote: post #186

balaji1 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% of the time it is not hubris, just the author missing some viewpoint/info/awareness. The author seems to have put in a lot of thought. And would be open to putting in more thought if you illustrated where he is incorrect or missing info. Otherwise the content is appealing to a lot of people.

i think parent prefers to simply be angry than contribute to the conversation

The parents in these situation often don’t have the emotional or social skills to do more or even realize that there are options other than be angry.

The parents are dysfunctional people churning out the next generation of dysfunctional people. It’s an intergenerational cycle that is nearly impossible to break.

Re: Escaping High School

#240

Post by solarmist » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 12:04 AM UTC

costanzaDynasty wrote: post #152

dmvdoug wrote: post #144

> Maybe you go to a school in a poor area, or with a lot of violence, or far too many students for the teachers to pay any individual attention to; or, relatedly, maybe you’re required to spend a lot of time caring for siblings or parents, working a low-skill job, or holding your family together or preserving your safety in some way. The disadvantages of this case are obvious, but there are a few advantages too; the…

My life only got better after I quit school at 15. At the end, I had so much outside distraction, that I couldn't put up the front at school anymore. I just needed sometime free from chaos.

Quitting school wouldn’t have helped me. It would’ve locked my into that life for myself.

The chaos I had was mostly at home. School was my calm place.