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Delta flight lands in Charlotte without front landing gear

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Re: Delta flight lands in Charlotte without front landing gear

#231

Post by marvin »

TobyTheDog123 wrote: post #225
graypegg wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume a low-margin high-risk industry implements “stupid policies” just to bother you and steal your laptop? The goal during an evacuation is to get every one off in 90seconds or less, since it’s possible there’s a fire, which has the potential to become extremely dangerous very quickly. Consider how long it takes to board a plane with luggage. We’re all really quick to assume this is simply bureaucrats i…

OP is saying that the policy of the luggage being held by the FAA is stupid, not that preventing people from taking their luggage in an emergency is stupid. The emergency is over: the plane landed. Everyone got off the plane. Give them back their luggage. He’s saying that because of policies like those (the FAA holding the plane), people are going to want to take their bags in an emergency situation.

And the policy certainly is stupid, as its second-order effects increase the risk that most of the passengers will die in the explosive fireball-like conflagration that could quickly follow a fire during evacuation.

Re: Delta flight lands in Charlotte without front landing gear

#232

Post by TobyTheDog123 »

kylehotchkiss wrote: post #114
justinclift wrote: post #92

What's with them putting "a hold" on all of the passengers possessions? Like, that's leaving people without their wallets (aka id, money) and so on. Sounds like they may not get it back for an unknown period of time (weeks, months?) either.

Untold best practice: Keep your phone, passport, wallet etc on your body always while on a flight. Imagine being stuck in this situation in a foreign country where they'll keep you at the airport for days waiting to figure out how to get you back home without a passport. Your renters/homeowners insurance may cover anything left on the plane that is lost and not covered by the airline.

Also push everything up to GitHub before deplaning starts :^)

(or always bring a large USB)

Re: Delta flight lands in Charlotte without front landing gear

#233

Post by addisonl »

graypegg wrote: post #222
phpisthebest wrote: post #186

>>He said they were told the Federal Aviation Administration has a hold on the plane so nothing can move on it or from it. And then they wonder why people try to take their bags during an emergency off boarding.... Because they know they will not see it for a long time if ever again. Stupid policy

Why do you assume a low-margin high-risk industry implements “stupid policies” just to bother you and steal your laptop? The goal during an evacuation is to get every one off in 90seconds or less, since it’s possible there’s a fire, which has the potential to become extremely dangerous very quickly. Consider how long it takes to board a plane with luggage. We’re all really quick to assume this is simply bureaucrats i…

Strawman, that’s not what they said.

Re: Delta flight lands in Charlotte without front landing gear

#234

Post by whymauri »

tialaramex wrote: post #204
kube-system wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aviation is not safe because of luck or because aerospace engineers build infallible machines. Aviation is safe because of a culture of safety that puts the right procedures in place to mitigate problems that will eventually happen.

And when you say "Aviation is safe" you mean specifically Scheduled Aviation ie people buy tickets and go on a plane with some guys they've never met flying it. Scheduled Aviation is remarkably safe. GA (General aviation, people who own a little plane and maybe just fly it for fun, or it's a professional expense for say a plastic surgeon and allows them to fly 300 miles home on Thursday evening after working four day…

I grew up next to Tamiami Airport, now Miami Executive Airport. The number of overconfident private flight incidents/crashes was wild, enough to make the neighborhood unhappy and eventually get one of the flight schools shut down. [0]

I can think of one (1) single fatal crash that wasn't due to overconfidence, ATC error, bad piloting, poor maintenance, etc. It was a horrific helicopter crash I'll never forget; we drove by on the way back from school and it was still on fire. Surreal sight.

[0] https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/dean-international-fligh...

Re: Delta flight lands in Charlotte without front landing gear

#235

Post by brianpan »

nkozyra wrote: post #220
nunuvit wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the current time and redundancy requirement insufficient? They had plenty of time and opportunities to look at it, and they succeeded with time to spare. What is the scenario where they would run out of time, and why couldn't they land assuming that the landing gear wasn't deployed? You'd need potentially an unrealistic number of cameras. Even if you decide on a case by case basis, you still have to weigh the…

> Why is the current time and redundancy requirement insufficient? I'm operating under the belief that more time to respond to issues is always a plus. Do you disagree?

More time to respond is a plus. Adding hardware is a minus.

Good enough is good enough.

Re: Delta flight lands in Charlotte without front landing gear

#236

Post by ajross »

ipnon wrote: post #95
Tepix wrote: post #7

Did they know in advance that they were having problems? Edit: Answer: Yes ... the crew initiated a go around due to a unsafe nose gear indication, climbed to 4000 feet and entered a hold to work the checklists. After working the checklists the crew declared emergency and requested emergency services on stand by. The aircraft performed a low approach to runway 36L, positioned for another approach to runway 36L and la…

There is an algorithm for everything in aviation. If you suspect your landing gear is not functional, you typically fly by a tower and have them make visual confirmation. Then you have another algorithm (they call them procedures) for how to land without gear. The airport likewise has a checklist of everything to do in this case. All of these procedures are hard won, the NTSB uses every hull failure and fatal acciden…

> There is an algorithm for everything in aviation.

In fact there's an exception that proves that rule: there was not an algorithm to handle pitot tube ice causing an MCAS failure on the 737 MAX, because the type certificate was shared with earlier aircraft that didn't have an MCAS to fail.

And two planes crashed because pilots didn't have an algorithm to follow to tell them what was happening when their trim went crazy.

Re: Delta flight lands in Charlotte without front landing gear

#237

Post by justinclift »

jen729w wrote: post #216
justinclift wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> contrary to popular belief you don’t need physical ID at airports Guessing that's a US specific thing? Unsure if that'd work for an Australian travelling around though, and I'd personally really rather not risk it going wrong. :)

You don’t need ID to travel domestically in Australia. Or do you mean ‘an Australian travelling around [in the USA]’?

Yeah, I meant overseas. :)

Re: Delta flight lands in Charlotte without front landing gear

#238

Post by nkozyra »

brianpan wrote: post #235
nkozyra wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is the current time and redundancy requirement insufficient? I'm operating under the belief that more time to respond to issues is always a plus. Do you disagree?

More time to respond is a plus. Adding hardware is a minus. Good enough is good enough.

> Adding hardware is a minus.

It's a cost, which is why I'm trying to understand what the ROI would be.

> Good enough is good enough.

In cases like this, yes, but ... planes do crash due to mechanical failure and it's not unusual for there to be confusion from instrumentation where visual confirmation could help.

Re: Delta flight lands in Charlotte without front landing gear

#239

Post by 6502nerdface »

tialaramex wrote: post #204
kube-system wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aviation is not safe because of luck or because aerospace engineers build infallible machines. Aviation is safe because of a culture of safety that puts the right procedures in place to mitigate problems that will eventually happen.

And when you say "Aviation is safe" you mean specifically Scheduled Aviation ie people buy tickets and go on a plane with some guys they've never met flying it. Scheduled Aviation is remarkably safe. GA (General aviation, people who own a little plane and maybe just fly it for fun, or it's a professional expense for say a plastic surgeon and allows them to fly 300 miles home on Thursday evening after working four day…

I did some research on this a while ago and concluded that GA is about as dangerous as motorcycling, both about 5-9x more dangerous than passenger cars depending whether you count fatalities or fatal accidents per passenger-mile.

On a per-hour basis, GA is probably more dangerous, given the greater passenger-miles per hour.

Re: Delta flight lands in Charlotte without front landing gear

#240

Post by phendrenad2 »

justinclift wrote: post #92

What's with them putting "a hold" on all of the passengers possessions? Like, that's leaving people without their wallets (aka id, money) and so on. Sounds like they may not get it back for an unknown period of time (weeks, months?) either.

You laugh but what if a turkey sandwich caused all of this?
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