Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm • Hacker News Board

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#231

Post by blackhaz » Mon, May 29, 2023, 7:12 AM UTC

adrian_b wrote: post #206

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #119

Adding fluoride to water has always seemed weird to me, since you can't control for how much water someone is drinking or account for different bodily factors like age and weight. I wonder why the European solution of adding it to salt isn't the default, especially given that iodized salt is already so popular and commonplace. As a general rule of thumb, I think it's interesting to scrutinize dosage recommendations a…

No, fluoride must not be added to any food or beverage, because it provides no benefits whatsoever when ingested. Fluoride is beneficial only when applied externally on the dental enamel, so that the fluoride ions will passively substitute the hydroxide ions. There is no known biological process that uses actively fluoride in the human body and excessive ingested fluoride has bad effects, e.g. bone damage. Therefore…

Wouldn't some part of toothpaste end up ingested? With strong fluoride pastes (like those 5000 ppm specialized ones) could there also be a risk?

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#232

Post by yarg » Mon, May 29, 2023, 7:14 AM UTC

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6923889/ - Developmental fluoride neurotoxicity: an updated review

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956646/ - Water Fluoridation: A Critical Review of the Physiological Effects of Ingested Fluoride as a Public Health Intervention

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8930857/ - The use of hydroxyapatite toothpaste to prevent dental caries

> In vitro and in situ studies are demonstrating promising results of HAP toothpastes on the remineralization of enamel lesions and preventing/reducing demineralization. Specifically, research appears to demonstrate either its superiority or equivalency to fluoride toothpaste as anti-caries agents.

I'm not sure how conspiratorial I'm being, but for years I've felt that the fluoridation of water was more about the dilution of neurotoxic industrial waste product and not oral health.

Regardless of whether I'm on or off base in that regard, I see little reason to continue to use something that - at best - will only react with pre-existing enamel, when hydroxyapatite toothpastes can actually fix damage (albeit to a limited degree).

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#233

Post by nwiswell » Mon, May 29, 2023, 7:21 AM UTC

oblak wrote: post #225

levzettelin wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people lack the self control to use toothpaste regularly. For those people it's beneficial adding flouride to water.

This has to be satire. What sort of incredible self control does something like this require? Where does it end?

You think it's satire that there are people that don't brush their teeth but do drink water?

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#234

Post by bboygravity » Mon, May 29, 2023, 7:21 AM UTC

a_bonobo wrote: post #184

newZWhoDis wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No credible scientific evidence exists that ingesting fluoride is beneficial. Whenever you point this out, people respond with studies that focused on topical application. This topic is weird. Otherwise intelligent people shut down and begin quoting movies from the 1960’s, and are somehow incapable of distinguishing between a topical mouthwash and oral consumption. Might as well drink sunscreen and talk about the red…

>No credible scientific evidence exists that ingesting fluoride is beneficial. ??? >Regular toothbrushing with fluoride toothpaste is the principal non‐professional intervention to prevent caries, but the caries‐preventive effect varies according to different concentrations of fluoride in toothpaste, with higher concentrations associated with increased caries control. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6398…

How is that not proving their point?

Putting fluoride in water to topically apply it to teeth (and get a higher risk of brain damage and stomach cancer among other things due to completely unnecessary ingestion).

The study you linked is indeed like proving that drinking sunscreen is great at preventing lip cancer. Or better yet: maybe we can start putting sunscreen in drinking water to prevent lip cancer?

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#235

Post by XorNot » Mon, May 29, 2023, 7:24 AM UTC

adrian_b wrote: post #210

dhbanes wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fact that fluoride is beneficial to your teeth is a settled fact. However, the issue being discussed is fluorides impact on brain health.

Fluoride is beneficial only when applied externally on the dental enamel, where it converts the hydroxyapatite synthesized by the human cells into fluorapatite, which is less soluble in the acids contained in food or excreted by bacteria. On the other hand, ingested fluoride has no benefits, because it cannot reach the tooth enamel and when in too large quantities it has bad effects, e.g. it may cause bone damage. Br…

Can you point to one single data point which has found any negative effect on human bones from excess consumption of fluoridated water at town water concentrations?

This should be easy since it's been done at enormous scale for decades so a huge quorum of people have spent their their lives drinking fluoridated water.

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#236

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 29, 2023, 7:26 AM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #149

smrtinsert wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the report did find a possible link to cognitive harm at approximately two times the current Keyword possible.

Also a long history of spurious statistical correlations where you find "possible" links. e.g. for a while there was a scare for RF from overhead powerlines causing brain cancer. Turns out, the issue is the statistics used to try and isolate an effect from a general population sample have bias: plug in any effect, and any grouping factor, and you'll probably observe a doubling of the risk. This effect was the cause o…

[deleted]

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#237

Post by triyambakam » Mon, May 29, 2023, 7:27 AM UTC

levzettelin wrote: post #215

adrian_b wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, fluoride must not be added to any food or beverage, because it provides no benefits whatsoever when ingested. Fluoride is beneficial only when applied externally on the dental enamel, so that the fluoride ions will passively substitute the hydroxide ions. There is no known biological process that uses actively fluoride in the human body and excessive ingested fluoride has bad effects, e.g. bone damage. Therefore…

Some people lack the self control to use toothpaste regularly. For those people it's beneficial adding flouride to water.

The parent stated clearly it doesn't work by ingestion.

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#238

Post by yarg » Mon, May 29, 2023, 7:28 AM UTC

s0rce wrote: post #142

DoreenMichele wrote: post #114

FYI: The CDC recommends breastfeeding infants, as breastmilk contains significantly less fluoride than fluoridated drinking water. If breastfeeding is not possible, the CDC also endorses using fluoridated water in infant formula, though it suggests mixing the formula with low-fluoride bottled water to lessen the risk of dental fluorosis. Infants who are fed formula made with fluoridated tap water can have three to fo…

Hmm, its been a while since I worked in the area of dental fluoride (was part of my PhD) but my understanding was systemic exposure pre-eruption was still beneficial. This (possibly biased source) agrees: https://www.dentalcare.com/en-us/ce-courses/ce334/pre-erupti... Excess exposure can cause fluorosis but nothing to do with the brain.

Possibly biased?

It's two clicks away from an online shop for (fluoride) toothpaste.

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#239

Post by thrashh » Mon, May 29, 2023, 7:28 AM UTC

adrian_b wrote: post #206

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #119

Adding fluoride to water has always seemed weird to me, since you can't control for how much water someone is drinking or account for different bodily factors like age and weight. I wonder why the European solution of adding it to salt isn't the default, especially given that iodized salt is already so popular and commonplace. As a general rule of thumb, I think it's interesting to scrutinize dosage recommendations a…

No, fluoride must not be added to any food or beverage, because it provides no benefits whatsoever when ingested. Fluoride is beneficial only when applied externally on the dental enamel, so that the fluoride ions will passively substitute the hydroxide ions. There is no known biological process that uses actively fluoride in the human body and excessive ingested fluoride has bad effects, e.g. bone damage. Therefore…

Well it halved childhood cavities in the 50s. It did its job and I don’t think it’s hard to understand why it was done.

Same reason why they stared iodine to salt… because people were having mental development issues.

Now is it still necessary? That’s a different question but let’s not pretend that we don’t know why it was done.

Re: Health officials delayed report linking fluoride to brain harm

#240

Post by x-complexity » Mon, May 29, 2023, 7:31 AM UTC

levzettelin wrote: post #215

adrian_b wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, fluoride must not be added to any food or beverage, because it provides no benefits whatsoever when ingested. Fluoride is beneficial only when applied externally on the dental enamel, so that the fluoride ions will passively substitute the hydroxide ions. There is no known biological process that uses actively fluoride in the human body and excessive ingested fluoride has bad effects, e.g. bone damage. Therefore…

Some people lack the self control to use toothpaste regularly. For those people it's beneficial adding flouride to water.

> Some people lack the self control to use toothpaste regularly. For those people it's beneficial adding flouride to water.

At some point, we can't just replace individual personal responsibility with the State as a solution. This attitude just reeks of infantilization of the total populace just because a certain percentage of them lack such self control.

If you still want to provide support to them, make it targeted towards those individuals in need of such help. Do not drag down the rest of the populace in order to make the lives of a few easier.