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The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

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231–240 of 298 posts

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effect is going to be that all the innovation happens elsewhere, big AI companies will develop outside Europe. And Europeans will only get to benefit as consumers, not as makers of AI. And the EU will take that as a reason to regulate even harder and then also somehow end up giving a bunch of money to its telcos. EDIT: My point is that regulation doesn’t just prevent “bad products”. The compliance overhead also p…

? Do you think there’s some kind of karmic point scoring system that you win by being the first one to build horrible unethical dystopian AI models? Or are you just complaining you won’t be able to horrifically exploit people using them to make lots of money? …because, sure, red tape is bad, but is it ultimately that terrible not being a allowed to be super villain? “But America has super villains! …! We’re being lef…

I think he is saying that laws have unintended consequences. And a law with good intentions (preventing bad AI outcomes) can have the unintended effect of discouraging entrepreneurs from choosing europe to build a new company.

I know plenty of people who avoid the healthcare sector because of HIPAA and avoid handling credit card data because of PCI. PCI and HIPAA are well-intentioned but can scare off innovators.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#232

I don't why bard isn't coming to the EU. Is it this or something else. Google hasn't explained it. I would hope that any ai act will allow reasonable players like Openai, Microsoft and Google to continue their good work without ruining into too much red tape. Considering what is happening, if it's because of the ai act, the act might be too strict as the EU risks getting disadvantaged by not having access to the same…

>Is it this or something else

I ofc can't speak for Google but I know the work I did it was much easier to simply block the EU until compliance was sorted out. It was almost always fine and we didn't have to change anything but it wasn't worth the risk.

I'd be shocked if it never made it to Europe.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could make the converse statement about thalidomide, which USA avoided while others suffered severe problems. Regulation isn’t a silver bullet, and it’s particularly challenging to regulate AI because bits flow faster than atoms

There's also the opioid epidemic and amphetamine epidemic. They're pretty hard to justify in my opinion. Not that other countries don't have issues, but it's less common in democracies that that these things are pushed onto people by the govt through lobbying.

I live in a city with defacto legal drugs (including up to cocaine, crack and meth, but admittedly no opoids except hydrocodone) and there's no societal collapse nor any epidemic to be seen.

The problem is not drugs.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you seem to imply that enforcing legislation means its "working". this is obviously a pre-requisite. legislation that is not enforced is a joke. but as clearly stated in my comment, this is fighting the old model, not building a new one.

To me, a privacy regulation that focuses not on merely collecting and protecting private data (HIPAA and friends), but instead on purposes of its use is very much a new model. For example, Amazon doesn't need consent to process and store your home address, but only as long as they use it to deliver goods you order and nothing else. I think it's more of a problem with companies who are fighting to keep the old model (…

> donate to https://noyb.eu/en

Thanks for the referral, joined as a supporting member :)

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#236
post #87
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is more in line with China on this one, I'm all for letting other societies try this cultural nuclear weapon on themselves first. See what sticks. I feel that's the way things have been going culturally/economically in France/Germany: Look at the world (usually the US but now also China more), see what is useful/competitive, adopt it in moderation. So this stance is extremely in line with the usual approach, i…

France's industrial might is going down quickly and Germany without cheap resources is losing against China that copied most of its tech. Moreover, China is already outcompeting US in the AI albeit focusing on population control models. EU will become an open air museum for rich travellers.

> China is outcompeting the US in ... population control models.

I feel 100% OK with being "outcompeted" in this space.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#237
post #109

I'm seeing lots of comments from fellow software engineers that seem to boil down to "all software regulation is bad" and I'd like to know where that's coming from, or if it's just a minority of the more libertarian-minded among us. Regulation can of course be a problem, but it can also do a lot of good to protect consumers. Do people feel this way about the FDA, the FAA, etc?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. If you look at even the US regulatory environment, for example: FDA approval for new drugs takes decades and billions, and enough said on America's "War on Drugs". The NRC has practically strangled nuclear power in its cradle, and environmental review adds years and millions to practically all new infrastructure. Health insurance regulation and financial regulation have enshrined a few oligopolistic players, with nearly impossible regulatory burdens for any new entrants. It's not merely that any one regulatory agency has run amok. All such agencies are fundamentally incentivized to increase their power and reduce risk by adding regulation in a one-way ratchet, while they have very little incentive to allow innovation except sustained external pressure, which new industries rarely can sustain. Large corporations rarely counterbalance this regulatory creep: they welcome regulation, since they can capture agencies to their will through lobbying and the "revolving-door" and afford a legal staff, while startups and individuals still face impossible regulatory burdens. Don't even get started on copyright. Regulation in America is fundamentally broken, and while it admittedly does manage to "protect" consumers from some of the worst potential abuses, it does so by choking innovation and essentially freezing us in the 1970s.

Why should we believe that AI regulation would be any different? Whatever agency is given power won't just stop at reasonable guidelines. They will likely be pressured by big players like Microsoft to choke off open source, by copyright giants like the RIAA and Disney to stop generation, and by every imaginable constituency to protect their jobs from change. Most importantly, individual open-source development will become prohibitive, and AI will be locked behind corporate APIs. In fact, if you look at sites like LessWrong, AI doomers are openly welcoming regulation precisely because they know an FDA-like agency will stop progress dead in its tracks. Make no mistake, AI regulation will hand enormous power to governments and corporations while denying it to the individual, whatever the good intentions were at the beginning. It is a devil's bargain, and if we as an industry are to take it in the name of "safety", we should at least do it with eyes open, instead of pretending that all that is being asked for is "guardrails" and "common sense".

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#238
post #227
post #109

I'm seeing lots of comments from fellow software engineers that seem to boil down to "all software regulation is bad" and I'd like to know where that's coming from, or if it's just a minority of the more libertarian-minded among us. Regulation can of course be a problem, but it can also do a lot of good to protect consumers. Do people feel this way about the FDA, the FAA, etc?

>Do people feel this way about the FDA, the FAA, etc? To a degree sometimes. There is no benefit to regulators to allow for more risk, because they will be blamed if something goes wrong. There's hardly anything to gain (as a regulator) to take risk.

Completely agree, but that’s not the same as saying that these organizations do not provide benefit

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you need patents and those patents will be created and registered in the US or China this way. Kind of like how EU car manufacturers have been sleeping on the EV movement. Now they have to source their parts from Chinese manufacturers. So wealth is leaking(patent costs etc) out of Europe and the continent will have less wealth in total over time. Especially now that the cheap Russian energy they had access too i…

I don't understand what you're arguing for. You want the EU to throw ethics out the window to encourage business growth?

No one us saying throw ethics out, they just see a different risk/reward balance than the EU regulatory bodies

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#240

In general I find the EU AI act quite reasonable. There are a couple AI uses that will be prohibited (most mentioned by the article, mostly manipulating people or dystopian government stuff). But imho the meat of the act is in categorizing many use cases as "High Risk", which comes with a list of requirements. Things like putting some effort in thinking about risks, into your training data, understanding biases, havi…

The effect is going to be that all the innovation happens elsewhere, big AI companies will develop outside Europe. And Europeans will only get to benefit as consumers, not as makers of AI. And the EU will take that as a reason to regulate even harder and then also somehow end up giving a bunch of money to its telcos. EDIT: My point is that regulation doesn’t just prevent “bad products”. The compliance overhead also p…

>The effect is going to be that all the innovation happens elsewhere, big AI companies will develop outside Europe.

The EU has rules for aircraft and automobile manufacturing and yet Airbus and Ferrari seem to be able to continue to be world leaders in their fields.

Moreover, there are very few restrictions on many industries in Somalia, yet for some reason it fails to be a hub of innovation.

Regulations don’t immediately mean a flight of intellectual capability to less restrictive places.

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