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What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

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Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#231

Post by mthoms »

LegitShady wrote: post #96
sumedh wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The government doesn't want to do anything Looks like the voters dont want to do anything either, if they keep re-electing the same party/politicians.

All 3 of the major parties are pro huge immigration. Any discussion to the contrary is labelled racist regardless of a housing and healthcare crisis. Businesses underpay and when they can't find people willing to impoverish themselves to work for them, they apply to the government to bring in "temporary foreign workers" - for things like fast food restaurant workers not essential business, keeping the wages down. Tem…

Are there any economists that support your theory? Namely that (if I understand your point correctly) immigration is hurting the economy more than it’s helping? Everything I’ve seen claims the opposite - but I’m open to new information.

Also, what support do you have for the claim that the existence of temporary foreign workers suppress wages for working Canadians? My understanding is that they are performing jobs that Canadians just won’t do and thus, their presence shouldn’t affect Canadian working wages (or so the theory goes).

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#232

Post by refurb »

sgt wrote: post #4

Sweden is broken? That's news to me. Why isn't this in the media?

The bigger questions for you should be - "what else is the media not covering" and "why is the media covering what they do"?

Think hard about those questions next time you read a news article.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#233

Post by ClumsyPilot »

satvikpendem wrote: post #207
alexashka wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't we just make the economy more fair by... No. When people say they want fairness, they are being disingenuous. They want a lot of the fair that benefits them and a little bit of the fair that makes their life worse. That's not what fair means. Would you want fair if it made your life a lot worse? The only honest answer is no :) Thus, we have what we have.

One interesting point regarding this is, ask anyone in the first world whether they want the same fairness as those not in the first world, ie if we added up all of the wages of everyone on the planet and redistributed them equally, the first worlder would be much much poorer than where they started off. Of course, I do support bringing up the average wages in each country overall, which is precisely what capitalism…

> if we added up all of the wages of everyone on the planet and redistributed them equally, the first worlder would be much much poorer than where they started off

This point of 'most people only want what benefits them' is very shallow.

You've set up the question for failure. You limited comparison to income, and to income just among labour class. If you actually setup the question correctly, you might find the results to be different.

Are we going to re-destribute capital gains? Most people in developed world earn zero from capital gains.

Are we going to re-distribute ownership of assets, shares, and land? Most people in developed world own zero land. Many have net worth of roughly zero.

Are we going to re-distribute taxation? Taxes in the first world are paid almost entirely by the middle class.

What about right to pollute, currently wealthy individuals have unlimited right to pollute, some take helicopter rides and jets to cut travel time by > what capitalism has been doing for the past century

Capitalism has been dumping toxic waste from the west in developing nations, like used electronic and plastics. It has brought Opium addiction to China, British American Tabacco is selling to children in South America right now, Nestle has admitted to slavery in Thailand.

Western companies have bribed local officials, and hired death squads to kill local union leaders and environmental activists.

The leading countries to rise in the last 30 years, China and Singapore, have active, competent and interventionist governments.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#234

Post by csomar »

dogcomplex wrote: post #190
whitemary wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capital accumulation and the tendency of the rate of profit to fall are the objective fundamental causes of inequality in every capitalist society, which is why every capitalist society depends on a plethora of ostensible efforts to counter these fundamental characteristics of capitalism. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_accumulation https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendency_of_the_rate_of_profit_to...

If the tendency of the rate of profit to fall was the underlying problem, basic needs and housing would be dirt cheap. That's not a problem - it's a good thing for consumers (and therefore the lower classes). It's the plethora of efforts to counter this which capitalists employ (mainly monopolization) to inflate prices anyway despite underlying increased efficiency (and less labor) that's the problem. The main proble…

> It's untenable without a government-enforced wealth-redistributing tax to offset that.

I find it interesting that you point the problem (this is not capitalism but rather the lack of it) and then suggest that the government (which made this whole system possible) somehow fixes this. The government is the problem and a top down approach doesn't work (it didn't work for the soviets and it's not going to work now).

The solution is capitalism, and liberalization of the markets. In other words, letting people and capital build houses and live in them.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#236

Post by johndunne »

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #200
satvikpendem wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to nitpick that every solution isn't as simple as fizzbuzz then there's no real point having a discussion. No, that's the entire point of having the discussion. If the solution can't answer even these types of questions, then there's no point having the discussion, because it breaks down even upon initial examination. > This is what the IRS is for. It's one of the only government organizations that actu…

> but even they are not going to tax unrealized capital gains You are completely missing the point of the conversation you started. Everything we're discussing is a hypothetical. In this scenario, they would tax that and everything else. Anyway, I don't think that you're arguing in good faith and I'm moving on with my day. Cheers.

I think you two peeps discussion illustrates the root problem with the whole issue to taxation and wealth. We start out with ideas for solving it, but quickly the scale of the mess that is the ‘wealth system’ quickly busts pretty much any solution. Trying to appreciate the true scale of the problem and any solutions becoming quickly impossible. And I think this is by design. It protects the system for the wealthiest…

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#237

Post by b112 »

amelius wrote: post #222
simonsarris wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this was basically the mentality that lead to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization it did not go well. It did not go well for either the richer (murdered) people or the poorer (ensuing famine) people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%93...

The goal is to make the system more fair, not eliminate one of the parties involved. Taking such an extreme position in an argument also doesn't help the situation.

The goal is to make the system more fair, not eliminate one of the parties involved. Taking such an extreme position in an argument also doesn't help the situation.

Yet it seems to me at least, that you are taking the extreme position. People are arguing for nuanced improvement, and discussing what issues may arise.

You're essentially saying "Enough talk, do random things". In fact, you're saying "do almost anything", which is quite extreme.

The point I made in the other sub-thread, is that many many other countries did that very thing. Whether by revolution, or elected and then massive change, these countries ended up with utter devastation, and in some cases 100% poverty.

I get you're frustrated. Fair enough. But waving away how difficult these issues are, just isn't workable.

To that end, I see people criticize:

* low interest rates

* high interest rates

* 0 interest rates

* quantitative easing

* methods to prevent bank collapses

* methods to reduce the depth of a recession

* methods to slow economic growth (reign in inflation)

Quite literally, no matter what anyone does, people are yelling "Idiots!" at the result. Meanwhile, the results compared to other nations aren't horrible.

I 100% agree that we need to look at ways to reverse the trend of wealth equity. But to say it's just simple and easy, just snap your fingers and try stuff?

No way.

And the wrong results can be utterly disastrous.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#238

Post by b112 »

Aeolun wrote: post #198
b112 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 90s, I didn't know anyone in their 20s, who didn't have a roommate(or two!), or were married. No one I knew, could afford an entire apartment to themselves! I find it weird that people complain about not being able to rent their own entire apartment, but are in their 20s. It wasn't a thing 30 years ago! As one advances in their career, eg in their 30s, then income tends to rise, due to experience, and better p…

In the 90s I didn’t have a house, I was in diapers. In my experience growing up, everyone I knew could afford to buy a house on a single salary when 28-30, so that’s what I expect for myself. Anything other than that is a regression.

So, you're saying that when interest rates first dropped mega-low, people could afford a house?

But... that's what caused the current problem, some say. Rates too low, for a decade, causing a housing bubble. It sounds to me like what you recall, was an aberration.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I think the bar to home ownership should be lower. But at the same time, I think it hasn't been low, for 50+ years.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#239

Post by TulliusCicero »

watrami wrote: post #103

It seems like it's the same story everywhere I look. Housing is the main driver of inequality and there is little change happening. We have the same problem here in Germany. I am currently living in Munich to finish my CS Master's at TUM and build a startup, and it is absolutely impossible to find anything remotely affordable. I am supported by two startup scholarships and make enough to get by, but no landlord even…

> It seems like it's the same story everywhere I look. Housing is the main driver of inequality and there is little change happening.

It's a way of transferring money from younger adults to older adults, and older adults vote.

It's basically an intergenerational pyramid scheme where each generation pays to the previous one, and each time they pay more. Of course, like any pyramid scheme, you can only keep it up so long.

Re: What broke Sweden? Real estate bust exposes big divide

#240

Post by mthoms »

im3w1l wrote: post #182
tptacek wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds pretty simple. Every abusive group in the world is coordinating with every other group.

I didn't word that very well, I meant that they sometimes ally, and sometimes oppose each other and often they are neutral.

So their behaviour is entirely normal?
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