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Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

reuters.com

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Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#231

Post by whitepaint »

ajhurliman wrote: post #152
thepasswordis wrote: post #148

I can take my money and put it into a slot machine, gamble it on horses, gamble it on sports games. I can buy useless thousand dollar sneakers, I can buy pokemon cards. I can waste my money on absurdly overpriced art, give it to scammy non-profits, donate it to scammy spoiler political candidates. In some states I can use my money to hire hookers, or buy drugs. But if I want to buy crypto, all of a sudden that is a p…

For better or worse, the US controls international banking. If we lose that, we essentially lose all of our non-military options for intervening in geopolitical situations. Keeping crypto down is sort of in the US's interest.

> Keeping crypto down is sort of in the US's interest.

The opposite is true (think of USDC). Eventually politicians will get it.

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#232

Post by hef19898 »

peyton wrote: post #134
rtpg wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to know more about this, so I'm wondering: is "most tokens are really securities, but the way tokens work means you couldn't really make them compliant securities in the same way that my paper plane is a plane but I won't get FAA approval to sell it to American Airlines" a way of envisioning the world on this? Or are 'compliant securities' theoretically a possible thing in some vision of the world where comp…

Securities regulators worldwide have devised processes for compliant crypto securities, so it is possible. It’s more like the guy running the FAA is a former Boeing exec and refuses to grant airspace authorization to rocketry startups.

The FAA isn't in charge of airspace access anyway, is it?

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#233

Post by syntheweave »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #225
matthewdgreen wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think NFTs are foul. But are you implying that awful collector’s items (no matter how speculative and distasteful) should be regulated as securities? What is the principle there that separates them from physical artworks?

Physical artworks have cultural as well as financial value, as well as intrinsic rarity. There's a unique physical object. At the high end it's likely to be famous and instantly recognisable. If you buy it you get full property rights. You can hide it, show it, sell images of it, or burn it. It's yours in an absolute sense, and you can do whatever you like with it. NFTs sell the right to speculate. The works themselv…

This critique falls on the line of scapegoating NFTs because there are many examples of physical goods that have varied use, valuation and trade properties. To name two, I can't make derivatives of a Funko Pop collection, and I can buy counterfeit watches.

On the end of the artist, real art and NFT art are sold for the same reason: someone wants to buy an idea. The tangibility of the art isn't a clear point for utility, because valuable art comes with complex considerations for its preservation and delivery, and in some cases stays vaulted and traded with certificates, which provides a definite negative utility - nobody sees it, yet you have a whole institution around trading it.

Arguments against NFT trade ultimately come from positioning the trade network beneath the state and its regulated mechanisms for speculation, when its existence clearly expresses the opposite: the state exists at the network's convenience. Every prison economy knows this dynamic - horses are traded, abuses are not total.

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#235

Post by Kye »

beaned wrote: post #174
joefigura wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem like the SEC has actually said what Coinbase is doing that is a security, or published regulations on how to determine which digital assets are securities and which are not "The SEC staff told us they have identified potential violations of securities law, but little more. We asked the SEC specifically to identify which assets on our platforms they believe may be securities, and they declined to do so…

How can you possibly be a fair "enforcer" of a law that you refuse to specify?

Law in the US is made by Congress. Federal agencies are given a fair amount of latitude in executing that law, but they're still bound by it. They can offer guidance as best as they can when Congress is slow to act, but that's about it. At the end of the day, they still have to convince a prosecutor if they want to make a federal case out of it.

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#236

Post by legutierr »

hef19898 wrote: post #230
roenxi wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He probably would. I have access to a bunch of good investment opportunities that US citizens don't have, because they are "protected" from accidentally making money. I have a stack of little pamphlets outlining interesting investment deals in Australia all labelled with "don't show this to anyone in the US, if you are a US person this isn't for you and we ask that you don't read it". This isn't crypto, only standard…

The Swiss =|= Credit Suisse Also, I know of a bridge that is up for sale. A Nigerian prince told my late uncle who used to work there in the oil and gas sector. But don't tell the Americans, no need to waste such a great investment opportunity.

Credit Suisse certainly does not encompass all Swiss, but it certainly includes a number of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy

The fact that you are equating this major Swiss bank to bridge salesmen and Nigerian princes kind of proves OP’s point.

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#238

Post by [deleted] »

rtpg wrote: post #92
nonethewiser wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the SEC won’t identify the alleged security then I think it’s different than what you’d characterize. The SEC should have a more collaborative spirit and share so that Coinbase can follow regulations or make their case. If the SEC is actually withholding this information they are acting in bad faith and operating more like a mob shaking someone down.

If I had to guess, the SEC is actually saying "you are offering many products, and _way too many of them_ are securities. We will not list them all because it would be way too much work. We will not list one because we don't want you to overfit on the example. We want you to actually do the analysis across all of your products". I have to imagine the SEC and Coinbase are in fact talking directly on a more off the rec…

[deleted]

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#239

Post by ashwagary »

humanizersequel wrote: post #118
headsoup wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Coinbase stake on the user's behalf? Do they take a cut? What is Coinbase doing with the staked crypto? Don't regular banks turn your deposits into investments (securities) that provide returns which become your interest? Is the idea here that Coinbase is doing nothing but passing your crypto to the 'investment banks' to trade with and earn your return, then just depositing that 'interest' back?

>Does Coinbase stake on the user's behalf? Yes. While blockchains like Ethereum are open protocols and staking is permissionless, it isn't exactly easy if you aren't savvy and/or somewhat well off already. The value add here is an IT service. >Do they take a cut? Yes, between 15 and 35 percent. >What is Coinbase doing with the staked crypto? Nothing, staking involves "locking" your crypto in exchange for the privileg…

>This is equivalent to "mining" in a proof-of-work protocol, and comes with similar rewards from the protocol in exchange for securing the network (with the risk that if you deviate from consensus, your staked crypto could be "slashed"). Coinbase operates the validator on your behalf.

Using your analogy, if I send money to a Bitcoin mining company, they use the money to buy/run miners, and then send me a percentage of their profit, isn't that an investment in a common pool? Isn't the item they use to validate my share a security?

Bitcoin may not be a security but the middleman is a securitizing a service that involves bitcoin, right?

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#240

Post by hackernewds »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #129
iambateman wrote: post #115

Some here have said it’s the SEC who should have a more collaborative spirit. But all of their incentives, job descriptions, and reason to exist are to _enforce laws_ not be chummy with startup executives. The “mean” approach to securities enforcement is what we as a society need…there are far too many scams and people who run them, and those scams seem especially concentrated within the crypto world. After the blitz…

In the blog past Coinbase General Counsel asks for "guidance". The guidance for future "crypto entrepreneurs" is going to come from the outcomes of these enforcement actions. CryptoExpert: "We want guidance. We want regulation." SEC: "Your product/service is a security." CryptoExpert: "No it's not!" Damodoran called cryptocurrency "currency made by the paranoid for the paranoid." [paraphrase] Let's be honest, coopera…

It is a marketing tactic now that highly centralized capitalist companies pretend to be socialist decentralized warriors for the common people.

https://twitter.com/brian_armstrong/status/16386740838178856...

BA appears to be taking this head-on to go on the offensive.

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