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NordVPN library and client code open-sourced

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Re: NordVPN library and client code open-sourced

#231
post #7

Reminder that it looks like NordVPN does shady stuff: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29285988 Allegedly, they are using their customers as botnets to resell traffic from residential IPs, mostly for scraping, through their other business "Oxylabs".

Hey, Vykintas from NordVPN here. By going open source we are trying to be more open. NordVPN customers aren't used as botnets to resell traffic and you can easily check it using Wireshark as well as look through the code. As you can see majority of it is open source. If you have any questions - shoot them and I can try and answer them. Otherwise - please don't spread information without proper investigation.

Hi Vykintas, thank you for answering. I'm the GP.

First of all, I want to reiterate that I purposefully used the word "allegedly" because I have no proof. I only have a smoking gun https://archive.is/bQo0O .

Second of all, I want to explain that it is very difficult to verify any of your points.

> you can easily [...] look through the code. As you can see majority of it is open source.

Yes. This is correct, but at the time of writing this comment, the source has been made available only 9 hour ago. https://github.com/NordSecurity/nordvpn-linux

The whole thing is one giant "Initial commit" of what looks like millions of lines of code. Auditing this code will take months for single motivated person. There is little to no comments. "Just read the code" is difficult in this context. Also routing traffic through the client can be done just with 2 lines of code enabling kernel ip forwarding, and another line of code adding a nft/iptable rule to nat traffic from NordVPN to the outside world. This is looking for a needle in a haystack if this is obfuscated.

Also your Windows and MacOS clients (which are the most used by non-power-users) are not opensource, at the time of writing. So these ones could still be doing what has been alledged. This would be fine, since it's most likely most of your users.

> you can easily check it using Wireshark

This is also not that easy. If, as alleged, Oxylabs resells millions of NordVPN IPs to thousands of Oxylabs customers, you only have 1/1000 chance to be the botnet of the day. So you would need to be running Wireshark the one day out of 2½ year to see the traffic going through with Wireshark.

Re: NordVPN library and client code open-sourced

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Netflix can see that your traffic is coming out of an AWS datacenter, then yeah they'll block it. If Nord VPN is really bouncing your traffic out of some other residential customer's connection, that would be a lot harder to detect. And a lot more ethically questionable if the other user doesn't realize they're doing it.

But if the VPN provider really was routing other customers traffic through your internet… you’d know it. You’d see requests and traffic that you didn’t make going across your router. Since you’d be the endpoint for the other dudes VPN you could probably even see what IPs they are connecting to and get an idea about the nature of their requests. I dunno if SSL encrypts the entire HTTP payload or not but could you even…

Full URLs: Definitely not. Path and query parameters are part of the HTTP payload, i.e. encrypted within HTTPS.

Host names: Very likely, unless you're using SNI.

Re: NordVPN library and client code open-sourced

#233

NordVPN, eh? I'll never forget there was a reddit thread on /r/vpn where a NordVPN customer complained about a billing issue or something. NordVPN's official response was to get defensive; they proceeded to actually publicly post a screenshot which included the customer's email address . I couldn't believe it. That tells you all you need to know about NordVPN's terrible attitude towards privacy.

> terrible attitude towards privacy A VPN is inherently not a privacy tool. It is perceived that way because of the acronym Virtual 'Private' Network but privacy is not in the design specs at all. It's just for tunneling over untrusted networks like Starbucks Wi-Fi and spoofing your geo-location. That's it. You can't verify the no-logs claims by providers unless you're physically in their building and auditing the se…

> spoofing your geo-location

thats good enough for me. I am sick and tired of websites telling me what I can and cannot do based on my location. Its not the 90s anymore, I refuse to put up with geo blocking.

Re: NordVPN library and client code open-sourced

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Netflix can see that your traffic is coming out of an AWS datacenter, then yeah they'll block it. If Nord VPN is really bouncing your traffic out of some other residential customer's connection, that would be a lot harder to detect. And a lot more ethically questionable if the other user doesn't realize they're doing it.

But if the VPN provider really was routing other customers traffic through your internet… you’d know it. You’d see requests and traffic that you didn’t make going across your router. Since you’d be the endpoint for the other dudes VPN you could probably even see what IPs they are connecting to and get an idea about the nature of their requests. I dunno if SSL encrypts the entire HTTP payload or not but could you even…

If such a feature exists (and I have no idea if it does) I assume they would only route traffic to known streaming services through it. Otherwise you're making random customers into exit nodes for potentially criminal traffic, which could go very badly.

Re: NordVPN library and client code open-sourced

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not selling out. If he keeps the old video up and doesn't make the claim that NordVPN does things it doesn't actually do, then he's just advertising. There are legitimate uses for VPNs, they're just not the reasons these VPNs advertise (the the parent comment says).

He doesn't make false claims, but he also doesn't tell people they'll be used as a botnet. Feels like something that would be relevant to know.

As far as I know, while they might be using a botnet to geo-unblock streaming sites (which is what many VPNs do, and at least somewhat shady/ethically dubious if it happens without explicit user consent of the users whose devices/networks are being used), there isn't any evidence for NordVPN users being used as a botnet.

Re: NordVPN library and client code open-sourced

#237

NordVPN, eh? I'll never forget there was a reddit thread on /r/vpn where a NordVPN customer complained about a billing issue or something. NordVPN's official response was to get defensive; they proceeded to actually publicly post a screenshot which included the customer's email address . I couldn't believe it. That tells you all you need to know about NordVPN's terrible attitude towards privacy.

If you weren't allowed to make a single mistake in anything, you wouldn't be alive today to write this comment. We should judge people and companies (which are ultimately also people) not by whether they make mistakes, but by whether they learn from them.

My goal isn't to correctly judge people's character, it's to get the most value for my dollar. If you force me into evaluating your character one way or another, I'm simply going to choose to not do business with you, my dollars are better off that way.

Re: NordVPN library and client code open-sourced

#238

NordVPN, eh? I'll never forget there was a reddit thread on /r/vpn where a NordVPN customer complained about a billing issue or something. NordVPN's official response was to get defensive; they proceeded to actually publicly post a screenshot which included the customer's email address . I couldn't believe it. That tells you all you need to know about NordVPN's terrible attitude towards privacy.

> terrible attitude towards privacy A VPN is inherently not a privacy tool. It is perceived that way because of the acronym Virtual 'Private' Network but privacy is not in the design specs at all. It's just for tunneling over untrusted networks like Starbucks Wi-Fi and spoofing your geo-location. That's it. You can't verify the no-logs claims by providers unless you're physically in their building and auditing the se…

right, it's private only if you control all the nodes (like in entreprise)

Re: NordVPN library and client code open-sourced

#239

NordVPN do logs and you will get caught if you do crimes using their services. It happened before during the Dutch KPN blackmail case and it will happen again. Everyone at BalCCon was warned about this a few years ago.

Wouldn't that make the product illegal in Europe unless they disclosed it? Or is this some secret SIGINT thing?

Re: NordVPN library and client code open-sourced

#240
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am the top comment on that post and you got the whole situation backwards and are thereby just spewing FUD with the implication in your comment :/. The idea was never that NordVPN was reselling the network connections of NordVPN customers; it was always that they were, on their backend, originating NordVPN customers traffic from maybe-sketchily-sourced IP addresses. Here is a paragraph I wrote a couple years ago on…

Sorry, my phrasing was wrong. The second part of my comment had nothing to do with the first link. I am basing the second part on this research: https://www.docdroid.net/kOP3JAh/tesonet-web-of-lies-pdf I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but the relations of Tesonet, NordVPN and Oxylab is creepy at best. People make the allegation that NordVPN is routing some of Oxylabs' traffic, because that's exactly what HolaVPN and Br…

There are no “relations” between these companies, they are literally one company operating under different names to be less visible.

Source: ex-employee.

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