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Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

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Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#231
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The India-Pakistan debacle today is an extension of a nearly millennium-long Hindu-Muslim feud. Not really. A lot of these arbitrary borders in modern times came about due to actions of former colonial powers. Prior to colonial times, there were many individual kingdoms/territories throughout the subcontinent. Other examples of arbitrary borders include the Durand line, and the Wakhan corridor.

I'm not just talking about border disputes, and I don't make this connection lightly. Pakistan was explicitly founded as a country for 'Indian Muslims'. The 1971 war wasn't over a border dispute: West Pakistanis openly genocided and raped[1] Bengali Hindus (and Muslims, for that matter), declaring Bengali women 'war booty', which forced India to step in. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_genocide As for '…

Related: You might find the links (the comment is not applicable) i have listed here useful - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33556881

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#232
It is sad how much of the knowledge was destroyed due to ideology and religious fanaticism. I have a book here next to me with the title "Vedic Mathematics". The book is based of ancient Indian text. Reading the preface of the book it is clear that what is written in the book is just a small portion of a very large volume of work that was lost. It is sad that so much advance knowledge was lost.

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The printing press allows magnitudes greater than that but it doesn't limit the number that can be written by hand, especially over hundreds of years, at an institute dedicated to study.

Copy out a short novel, by hand, using a quill pen, and then decide what the limit is for handwritten books. By the way, you also need to make the quills, ink and paper by hand, and work with natural light and no eyeglasses.

Why is the chosen length a short novel? Books range from a few pages to hundreds of pages.

If we make some unlikely assumptions - that there were 10,000 students attending Nalanda every year from its foundation to its destruction, and that each student wrote for only 1 hour a day, 5 days a week for 40 weeks of the year, that gives us 2,000,000 hours of writing. Over 763 years that is 1,526,000,000 hours.

There were 2000 teachers at Nalanda, that's 400,000 more hours per year, 305,200,000 hours over the course of Nalanda's existence.

The population of India in 1000 AD is estimated at anywhere from 75 million to 200 million. Not all the students would have to write all the books as there was another university nearby that was also destroyed by Muslim invaders called Takshashila[2] which would've also housed and produced books, some of which no doubt made their way to Nalanda, and show that books weren't only produced in one part of ancient India, and that there was a large enough population to support a book "industry" with things like quills and ink (they actually used a knife with palm leaves that could last hundreds of years[3]), let alone writers.

Add to that, what are some of the students going to be doing once they graduate? Writing books. As that last link says:

> Hindu temples often served as centers where ancient manuscripts were routinely used for learning and where the texts were copied when they wore out. In South India, temples and associated mutts served custodial functions, and a large number of manuscripts on Hindu philosophy, poetry, grammar and other subjects were written, multiplied and preserved inside the temples. Archaeological and epigraphical evidence indicates existence of libraries called Sarasvati-bhandara, dated possibly to early 12th-century and employing librarians, attached to Hindu temples. Palm leaf manuscripts were also preserved inside Jain temples and in Buddhist monasteries.

That is all to ignore that movable type printing was invented in China[4] before Nalanda was sacked, and that scholars from all over Asia went back and forth from Nalanda sharing texts. You might have heard of the Journey to the West, which was inspired by an actual journey that was written down in a book called Great Tang Records on the Western Regions[5]. In it, Nalanda is mentioned because Xuanzang, the author, visited there. That book took 2 people to produce, and is described as:

> The book contains more than 120,000 Chinese characters and is divided into twelve volumes

That's in 646 AD. I think you underestimate the abilities of the people of that time to produce books.

[1] https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/33640/what-was-t...

[2] https://www.britannica.com/place/Taxila

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm-leaf_manuscript

[4] https://www.history.com/topics/inventions/printing-press

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Tang_Records_on_the_West...

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#234
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was obvious but apparently not; my other comment clarifies it as; >What is being pointed out is the achievements of civilizations predating Islam in those countries which are today Islamic.

Oh yeah - that's a big issue. Lots of big civilizational achievements were happening in what became the Islamic world before Islam became dominant.

My strong contention is that much of the credit for the "Golden Age of Islam" should go to these pre-Islamic civilizations whose achievements were forcibly appropriated by the Arabs under their "Islamic" conquest.

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, the so-called 'isms' of India ('Buddhism', 'Jainism', 'Saivism') are called agama traditions. The question scholars face or faced is this: what was earlier? Indologist story that both left wing and right scholars accept is that: there was Vedism, corrupted to become 'popular' hinduism, later Indian Martin Luther (Buddha) fought against the veil immorality of Hindus (because caste system forces immoral obligation…

It is not clear that Vedism was created before Jainism, which has a strong archeological presence in South India. There is also speculation that Shaivism is much older and was merged in to Hinduism quite late, some what contemporaneous with the elimination of Brahma (Brahmism) as a deity to be worshipped. Also, it is weird to talk about left/right wrt history. History is just history, not left or right. In the Indian…

Anything that doesn't suit Western framework of looking at India can't be considered pseudo history. Most revered river in Vedas is Saraswati which disappear more than 10k years ago. Vedas describes river Saraswati in it's fully glory so they have to be much older than. Not every evidence is going to come from archeology and some evidence is yet to be found like chariots from Rakhigadhi which were also considered a fiction.

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#236
post #210
post #163

It is amazing it taught 10,000 students at once, but having 10 million books … at times when only handwritten books existed?!? Currently Indian National Library has 2.2 million books and British library has > 13 million. Something is misquoted I guess.

I think what the author is calling book maybe a manuscript? I think they are counting even five written pages as a unique book? So maybe essays are also being counted as books.

It is still an unrealistically high number. I think it is just as exaggerated as the "knowledge" of "medicine" and "mathematics" that was taught at what was just a crazy indoctrination center for a particular brand of old-fashioned superstition.

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that proper university did not exist before 11th century is disingenuous at its best and propaganda at its worst. It's like saying there is no proper engineering existed before civil engineering (civilian engineering) while military engineering has existed since time immomerial. There were numerous institutions of higher learning or universities in Muslim Spain, Middle East and Italian Sicily that the latter w…

> There were numerous institutions of higher learning or universities Those are not synonymous; and therein lies the problem with your assessment. There were many institutions of higher learning in the ancient world, with histories documented back to e.g. 21st c. BCE in China. A university is not simply an institution of higher learning; the word implies a certain composition and structure, and that doesn't trace bac…

> histories documented back to e.g. 21st c. BCE in China.

How? Remember that the Chinese script isn't even that old...

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#238

[dead]

Saying that proper university did not exist before 11th century is disingenuous at its best and propaganda at its worst. It's like saying there is no proper engineering existed before civil engineering (civilian engineering) while military engineering has existed since time immomerial. There were numerous institutions of higher learning or universities in Muslim Spain, Middle East and Italian Sicily that the latter w…

> Saying that proper university did not exist before 11th century is disingenuous at its best and propaganda at its worst.

I'd say that Plato's Academy is a good candidate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_Academy

Claiming, as you do, that everything was Muslim/Arab is clearly "disingenuous at its best and propaganda at its worst".

(Others have already disproven your etymological claims.)

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#239
post #164

[dead]

I think this goes a little too far. While the madrasas were indeed religious in nature, they did a fine job of teaching one Leonardo Bonacci the thereto obscure subject of al-jabr , and the professors granted their students the ijazah . And we would be remiss to ignore the proximity of the Pandidakterion ("all-teachings") in Constantinople: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Constantinople Indeed, we can tra…

> While the madrasas were indeed religious in nature, they did a fine job of teaching one Leonardo Bonacci the thereto obscure subject of al-jabr

Do we know for a fact that Fibonacci learned decimal arithmetic (and simple algebra) there or did he learn it -- as I thought we knew -- on his travels with his merchant dad?

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might in fact be true. If we define humans as having a sufficiently sophisticated language, and using a term to reference one's entire species is characteristic of that, then at a stretch we could define the first human being as the child of proto-humans who first invented this linguistic concept.

Point taken :) What if "human" would be replaced by "ape"?

Sure. There are several similar arguments made in this thread. Such as, before the word "run" was first used, we could only walk quickly.

The logic of these arguments is fine. I just noticed a way to nit-pick your implementation of it.

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