Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 320 posts

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#231

Post by toast0 »

mcguire wrote: post #214
toast0 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. > Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead. Some of the rules are, but some of the rules aren't. When code calls for a maximum distance between…

The last house we lived in---a moderately expensive and well constructed house, compared to many of the others we looked at---didn't have electrical boxes behind wall- and ceiling-mounted light fixtures. The romex was just directly connected to the fixture and the fixtures were secured with drywall anchors. Disastrous?

Electrical boxes are low cost during construction and address a real risk; electrical connections are where wiring is most likely to break and potentially cause heat and sparks. Electrical boxes are an effective mitigation to that risk, and really should have been included in construction. Retrofitting boxes in may be a lot of labor though. In bulk, single gang new work boxes are less than $1/box, and don't take much time to put in (two nails + a little extra time while wiring to pull the wire through the holes). Plenty of other places to save a little money and a little time.

For heavy fixtures, like large chandeliers and ceiling fans, appropriate boxes also help with bearing the weight; preventing the fixtures from pulling out of drywall and being suspended only by the wiring.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#232

Post by notlukesky »

terminalcommand wrote: post #205
mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

In Turkey, these buildings were constructed by building companies close to government. They paid their bribes and constructed the buildings with making every shortcut. What was Turkey's response? The governor of Hatay ordered to demolish the building construction control authority's archive (archive with signed and stamped construction projects, floor studies etc.), with the documents in it (i.e. to bury all evidence…

Building companies are close to the government everywhere. Try getting permits without access to the city council or mayor. Turkey is a major faultline (and most of the northern Mediterranean) and seems to constantly have earthquakes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_earthquakes_in_Turkey

In the same area of the earthquakes now (the size of the UK) there was an earthquake in 115 AD that killed 260 thousand people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/115_Antioch_earthquake

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#233

Post by ansgri »

ajross wrote: post #77
mrlonglong wrote: post #55

Just out of interest for the layman, is there anything a non-expert like myself can examine on a building to assess its 'survivability' during an earthquake?

The examples in the linked article are reinforced concrete structure that were missing their steel reinforcement. So... no, not really, unless you have an xray setup or whatever. This is precisely why we have building codes and certified inspectors to sign off on construction projects.

While x-ray is not accessible, for this specific risk one could use some cheap induction-based metal detector to spot-check the presence of rebar within walls.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#234

Post by notch898a »

inglor_cz wrote: post #227
notch898a wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the war can reliably be separated from the issue anywhere in the Turkey/Syria/Iraq region, but I saw some desperate housing on the outskirts of Qamishlo. I don't see how requiring sturdy housing would make the situation any better, as many families simply cannot afford it. Also the Kurds, who are a big portion of inhabitants in South Turkey, tend to be less religious in general than residents of many of…

"tend to be less religious" That is what I have heard too, but family/society patterns tend to linger for a generation or two after the religiosity has subsided. Czechia, where I live, has only about 13 per cent of self-declared Christians, but the main Christian holidays such as Easter and Christmas are still almost universally observed. The trace is still strong, even though the religious core has mostly evaporated…

Yeah I totally acknowledge cultural aspects associated with religion live on. Of course your family has to have a place to invite the family in anyways, which they may or may not be able to afford the code house.

Corruption is another factor at play, but they can be confounding factors. This is evident when you see even SELF-BUILT homes often have to follow codes -- what is the owner supposed to be defrauding himself or something? Code are precisely why I haven't built my own home due to restrictions on minimum sq ft etc where I live as I could easily afford land and to build a house but not an up to code house so I'm stuck renting and losing lots more money in the process. And corruption cuts both ways -- giving more power and rules to zoning enforcement just gives opportunity for corruption to live with the zoning enforcement whereas having no zoning means no zoning enforcement people to corrupt.

In US code enforcement has initiated action to destroy tiny homes for homeless people etc which explicitly shows these people exposed to the elements as a result of code.

As for China, despite significant 'party' corruption, they have one of the highest family owned house ownership rates in the world, far surpassing US and Czechia. I would be very happy for us to have policies that end with such egalitarian home ownership.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#235

Post by Self-Perfection »

mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

>But given time, the events the preceded their writing gets forgotten. I've never seen any of these buildings fall down, so why do we need so many rules to prevent buildings from falling down?

That is the problem with how the rules are written. The rules should have a context to reasons why these particular rule was employed. I imagine something like an wiki page with lots of links.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#236

Post by Symbiote »

mcguire wrote: post #218
flavius29663 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This to me sounds like another case of out of context "Europeans do this, so it must be better". From personal experience, the UK takes fire safety much more serious than the US: fire alarm tested every week, fire drills are made often and *for real*, fire doors everywhere, every kitchen has a fire blanket (not just an extinguisher), every building has 2 doors, every appliance has a plug with a fuse in the plug itsel…

This the same UK that had a scandal a while back about a high-rise fire caused by idiotic external cladding materials? :-)

If breaking the regulations leads to prison for those responsible, it's working as best as it can.

(Legal cases, inquests etc continue.)

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#237

Post by PicassoCTs »

The problem is that even with the codes properly, you can not escape past sins. In particular, illegal waste dumps from the 60s, 70s, who just have been bulldozed over and build upon. They lead to liquidification under stress (large buildings or small earth quakes. And even the best up to code building will not withstand stresses outside of the spec (tilt by 30 degrees + shake).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefaction

Its very scary and in particular near old city borders in the 70s its acute. https://earthquake.usgs.gov/hazards/urban/sfbay/liquefaction...

Preparations: Not alot you can do. Brainstorm and placebos.Lifeslides and ziplines. I dunno. I provide awareness and anlysis. No solutions.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#238

Post by PicassoCTs »

terminalcommand wrote: post #205
mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

In Turkey, these buildings were constructed by building companies close to government. They paid their bribes and constructed the buildings with making every shortcut. What was Turkey's response? The governor of Hatay ordered to demolish the building construction control authority's archive (archive with signed and stamped construction projects, floor studies etc.), with the documents in it (i.e. to bury all evidence…

Will be interesting to see, were the responsibility dominos stop.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#239

Post by MisterTea »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #163
tablespoon wrote: post #94

Libertarians: this is why we have building codes. We don't need builders cutting corners and harming people years down the road, because profit convinced them that was the right thing to do for their own interests.

Just because some building codes have a good purpose doesn't mean all building codes do. On another forum there was recently a long discussion about the requirement for x number of power outlets in hallways of single family homes. This was added when wall-to-wall carpeting was fashionable and people in homes without outlets in the hallways were using extension cords so their vacuum cleaners could reach all of the car…

If you want to call out a silly building code at least stay relevant and list one which is structural. Otherwise this outlet discussion is meaningless in the context of structural design.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#240

Post by PicassoCTs »

commandlinefan wrote: post #67
mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

> it's so frustrating I feel the same way developing software - the only thing that ever matters, and has ever mattered (at least since I started developing software in 1992) is "meeting the date". Whatever corners can be cut to make the date are cut, and then the thing breaks in fairly predictable ways because corners were cut. It's maddeningly infuriating and I'm not even dealing with people's lives here. I can't e…

The only thing were that does not hold, ironically, is startups, were the boss is involved with the product and suddenly all the gamed metrics, are suspended and things get done properly. Goto love those no longer important deadlines.
Post reply on HN