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International Security and Estonia 2023

raport.valisluureamet.ee

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Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#231

Post by Thaxll »

Kukumber wrote: post #210
Thaxll wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except we don't force countries to enter commonwealth, Putin is scared of old soviet union nations joining Europe. They're free to do so.

> Except we don't force countries to enter commonwealth, They don't force anyone > Putin is scared of old soviet union nations joining Europe I don't think Russia is scared They are worried Europe became an american military base with long range weaponry https://www.thesoldiersproject.org/how-many-us-military-base... > They're free to do so. Nobody said the opposite

> They don't force anyone

So why did they invade Ukraine then?

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#232

Post by enaaem »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #162

This is realpolitik, so there isn't any morality beyond expansion and acquisition. Can we stop pretending these are anything other than resource wars, combined with an excuse to throw money at the defence industries? Russia looked at US actions in Iraq etc and apparently had an irrational attack of imperial atrocity envy, blended with greed over the mineral-rich areas of Eastern Ukraine. Neither empire is wholesome a…

The US influence in the world it's not just militarily. It's economic, cultural, technologic, and idealogical influence is unprecedented. The USSR had a exportable ideology, but current Russian ethno-nationalism is rather a negative influence than a positive one.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#233

Post by ceejayoz »

somenameforme wrote: post #228
ceejayoz wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A group, "Hamilton 68", was a central source on all of the "Russian trolls" narrative. That is not backed up by even the overly breathless Twitter Files coverage. Post #3: https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1619029780179075073 "Unlike #ReleaseTheMemo, this one is primarily being driven by data from Hamilton68." The Wikipedia article covers substantially more involvement than Twitter bots.

I fully agree; that was poorly written on my part. I've changed my post to say, "Hamilton68 was a central source on the Russian trolls narrative." which is more in the spirit of what I meant. But I'd emphasize that these issues are not isolated. Hamilton 68 was treated as an authoritative source and was promoted by individuals such as Adam Schiff. Schiff was the chair of the House Intelligence Committee which has ove…

> So any investigation carried out by our intelligence community can be well expected to have also taken Hamilton 68 as an authoritative source.

I don't know why you'd assume that if Twitter saw through it immediately (as evidenced by their discussions in that Twitter Files thread).

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#236

Post by ceejayoz »

somenameforme wrote: post #186
enaaem wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, the USSR also held a referendum in the Baltics, but similar to Ukraine, it was after they invaded them and installed a puppet regime. The more you study history, the more you notice the same old tricks.

The referendum in Crimea has been repeated by numerous Western organizations, including Gallup. [1] The results are nearly identical to what Russia said they were. Russia claimed a 97% "yes" with an 83% turnout rate. Gallup found that 82.8% of Crimeans agreed that the poll reflected the will of the people. It's two ways of saying, more or less, the exact same thing. The minority that opposed joining Russia chose to b…

There's a whopping bit of selection bias in that Gallup poll; it polls only people still living in Crimea. Some of those are Russians who immigrated in, and there's a big missing chunk of people who left because of the invasion.

It should be unsurprising that the folks who stayed tend to be the folks who support the Russian annexation. The opinion of those who fled matters, too.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#237

Post by somenameforme »

ceejayoz wrote: post #233
somenameforme wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree; that was poorly written on my part. I've changed my post to say, "Hamilton68 was a central source on the Russian trolls narrative." which is more in the spirit of what I meant. But I'd emphasize that these issues are not isolated. Hamilton 68 was treated as an authoritative source and was promoted by individuals such as Adam Schiff. Schiff was the chair of the House Intelligence Committee which has ove…

> So any investigation carried out by our intelligence community can be well expected to have also taken Hamilton 68 as an authoritative source. I don't know why you'd assume that if Twitter saw through it immediately (as evidenced by their discussions in that Twitter Files thread).

Because I've read that 'book' [1] for the Iraq War. The evidence for the mobile weapons laboratories was completely fabricated - they were pictures of weather balloon trucks. The 'high level insider' testimony came from a taxi driver who was just randomly making stuff up, and most of the intelligence community knew was just a compulsive liar. Nonetheless, his assertions made their way into no less than 112 governmental reports from January 2000 to September 2001 - and would be used to justify the war.

And it just continues on endlessly. Every bit of evidence, no matter how flimsy or obviously false, made its way through the proper channels - so long as it supported the desired narrative. This is not something that can be dismissed as incompetence even if you hold our intelligence community to an abysmal standard. And I see no reason to think that this has changed.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_weapons_laboratory

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#238

Post by ceejayoz »

somenameforme wrote: post #237
ceejayoz wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So any investigation carried out by our intelligence community can be well expected to have also taken Hamilton 68 as an authoritative source. I don't know why you'd assume that if Twitter saw through it immediately (as evidenced by their discussions in that Twitter Files thread).

Because I've read that 'book' [1] for the Iraq War. The evidence for the mobile weapons laboratories was completely fabricated - they were pictures of weather balloon trucks. The 'high level insider' testimony came from a taxi driver who was just randomly making stuff up, and most of the intelligence community knew was just a compulsive liar. Nonetheless, his assertions made their way into no less than 112 government…

The Bush White House manipulated intelligence to get the result they already wanted.

The Trump White House and Senate Republicans definitely didn't want "yep, Russian involvement" to be the conclusion of the 2016 investigations. Very different situation, and a lot more evidence from a lot more venues (including successful criminal convictions).

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#239

Post by 01ce8c91872dd6d »

ethbr0 wrote: post #202
01ce8c91872dd6d wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh yes, I did see those.

And your thoughts on how democracy, despite being the least effective approach to extracting resources and suppressing dissent, was pushed on them by the US? Afghanistan wouldn't be under Taliban control today, if the US had installed a dictator and given them a free hand.

I think it worked out pretty well to enrich a handful of corporations and individuals at the expense of American taxpayers and brown lives.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#240

Post by skeletal88 »

blub wrote: post #158
qaq wrote: post #80

I wonder why Russia gets a pass from the left and right on being pretty brutal colonial empire. Even in present day borders Russia is composed of literally hundreds of colonised nations that get exploited and brutalised for the benefit of Moscow.

Can you point to at least one historical analysis which identifies Russia as a colonial empire? Seeing people draw this parallel was surprising to me, as I associate colonialism with the European conquerors of the world: Portugal, Spain, France, Great Britain, The Netherlands and Germany. Indeed I’ve gotten this list from a GEO Magazine special issue dedicated to colonialism, showing on a map where each of those coun…

Some experts have defined russian colonialism as "internal colonialism", they didn't conquer and abuse overseas territories, but expanded by taking over their neighbours and then used the resources of the territories taken over. Opressed the original local population and gradually destroyed their culture and language and identity by trying to russify them. Russia does it whenever it gets a chance.
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