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Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

hydrogeninsight.com

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Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#231

Post by otherme123 »

rich_sasha wrote: post #210

I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is. The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage, in some cases seasonal storage, IE overproducing in summer and holding on to the energy til the end of winter. Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here. It's…

If batteries has problems as a long term storage, hydrogen is even worse. If you store liquid hydrogen, you have to let the gas escape or risk explosions. Keeping things below -250ºC is not easy. Worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AouW9_jyZck

Every single actor is pushing for their own interests and highlighting the flaws of the competitors. You cannot say in good faith that hydrogen, nuclear or fuel are supporting the "renewable energy gang", or that they are not a gang themselves. In fact, my opinions is that nuclear gang was so against renewables that they missed the bus of "renewables + nuclear" friendly mix, letting the gas gang conquest "renewables + gas".

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#232

Post by hoseja »

rich_sasha wrote: post #210

I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is. The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage, in some cases seasonal storage, IE overproducing in summer and holding on to the energy til the end of winter. Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here. It's…

Hydrogen doesn't work at all. Ammonia might.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#233

Post by POPOSYS »

jiggawatts wrote: post #31

Hydrogen is 100% an attempt by fossil fuel companies to remain relevant in a "green energy" world. The primary source for hydrogen would be from methane in natural gas, and they could then sell this as a "zero pollution fuel" while continuing their non-renewable energy business as normal. If you read between the lines and look at the companies involved, they're always linked to fossil fuel companies directly or indir…

Thank you very much for your information.

Unfortunately you invalidate your own work by not providing the sources of your knowledge. The internet has a cool feature called "URL", it is meant to provide the source of some information so that your readers can access your sources, too. Just use it!

In a mature, scientific discussion you always want to provide these sources.

Just saying something without sources is an internet discussion style of the past and should not be accepted by modern humans.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#234

Post by vkou »

hoseja wrote: post #232
rich_sasha wrote: post #210

I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is. The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage, in some cases seasonal storage, IE overproducing in summer and holding on to the energy til the end of winter. Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here. It's…

Hydrogen doesn't work at all. Ammonia might.

Doesn't burning it create NO2, which causes acid rain?

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#235

Post by POPOSYS »

rich_sasha wrote: post #210

I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is. The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage, in some cases seasonal storage, IE overproducing in summer and holding on to the energy til the end of winter. Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here. It's…

We can not discuss these important issues in a football fan like culture of mutual hostility. We need to collect facts and count numbers and compare which solutions are really helpful in reducing CO2. Hate speech against "the others" does not help at all.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#236

Post by POPOSYS »

_hypx wrote: post #229
rich_sasha wrote: post #210

I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is. The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage, in some cases seasonal storage, IE overproducing in summer and holding on to the energy til the end of winter. Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here. It's…

It’s pretty obvious that many environmentalists don’t want solutions. They just want to feel superior to others because they have solar panels on their roof and others don’t. Anything that could potentially render those solar panels unnecessary is very aggressively opposed.

You are not saying anything relevant about "environmentalists" here, but a lot about your view of the world and your approach to problem solving.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#237

Post by Mikeb85 »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #230
Mikeb85 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but batteries contain toxic materials and rare earth minerals, require lots of energy to make, lots of energy to recycle, etc... So energy to mine the materials, energy to assemble the battery, energy to recycle the battery after it's useful lifespan (5-10 years)... None of these are ever counted in people's calculations. I tried to find data on energy required to produce the batteries and they still didn't count…

Most of the mining waste you refer to is related to COAL. They produce roughly 5 billion tons a year of coal for which many times of that is waste rocks. 5 billion tons of coal gets mostly burned up. Meanwhile 50 THOUSAND tons of lithium is produced per year. For which maybe millions tons of waste gets created.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium

Hmmm, 500,000 litres of water per ton of lithium. Electrolysis required to create lithium metal. Plus the required dirt being moved, water being moved, energy for electrolysis, etc...

Sounds very energy efficient...

/s

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#238

Post by hoseja »

vkou wrote: post #234
hoseja wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen doesn't work at all. Ammonia might.

Doesn't burning it create NO2, which causes acid rain?

I think you can mitigate the NOₓ the same way diesels do - excess ammonia.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#239

Post by Xixi »

widdershins wrote: post #218
Xixi wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These few legitimate use cases should not be dismissed though, from the perspective of sizing an energy grid: for example reducing iron ore with hydrogen rather than coal works out to about one nuclear reactor for one furnace. No idea for chemical feedstock, but it's likely to also be huge. I don't think anyone pushing for hydrogen in cars in Japan has done even a back-of-the-envelope calculation of how many nuclear…

> behind each wind turbine field there is a very real gas turbine or lignite power plant But isn't it still better to be using wind turbines 75% of the time when it's windy, and gas/coal only 25% of the time when it's not? Surely even without adequate battery storage that's an improvement?

It’s not replacing gas/coal but nuclear, so CO2 wise it is a major step back…

Germany first replaced nuclear by lignite, then lignite by wind + lignite/gas, so if you only look at the second step it doesn’t look so bad. But if you look at the whole picture it doesn’t look so good.

France is coming from 75% nuclear and 25% hydro, and has no business adding and firing up gas turbines.

Of course I’m painting things in broad strokes… reality is always a little bit more subtle.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#240

Post by dbspin »

enslavedrobot wrote: post #193
amluto wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t make sense to me. Hydrogen is not an energy source — it’s a way to store energy and make it portable. So Japan could import hydrogen (which is not obviously any better than importing LNG or oil), or Japan could make it from domestic or imported energy sources (nuclear, solar, wind, imported oil, imported LNG, etc). Turning electricity into hydrogen and then into motive power for a car is dramatically les…

Green hydrogen is made from electricity. The cost of green hydrogen is currently high, but it is dropping faster than pretty much any other energy storage technology. Hydrogen storage is an order of magnitude cheaper (or more) than any other tech. It is expensive because of the cost of electrolyzers/fuel-cells that convert between electricity and H2. These costs are dropping fast at efficiencies of 80%+ along with th…

Unfortunately 'green hydrogen' currently isn't.

"Under baseline conditions, the greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions are around one-quarter that of the currently dominant process for hydrogen production, steam methane reforming (SMR). However, sensitivity analysis shows that GHG emissions may be comparable to SMR under reasonably anticipated conditions. "

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2021/ee/d1ee0...

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