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“Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

gsb.stanford.edu

231–240 of 310 posts

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#231
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, for lack of a better term, "capitalist brain rot". It may even be "American brain rot". I don't mean this in a disparaging way to you, individually, by the way. Myth #1: Most people believe they're "above average". In your post you talk about cutting the "bottom 10%". You feel comfortable with that because you likely believe you're not one of th ebottom 10%. It's yet another example of how true the Steinbeck…

When you say meritocracy is a lie, are you referring to Daniel Markovits by any chance? He had a very stimulating conversation with Sam Harris in 2020 that I’ve recently re-listened to. Meritocracy fails to live up to its promise because high performing parents always help their kids by artificially boosting their competence with e.g. test prep services. So tests tend to measure preparedness for the test, rather than…

Every company wants to measure merit and indeed its common to slice and dice stats along many dimensions to attempt to achieve an objective analysis of the worth of an employee. However these measures inevitably fail to capture many elements of an employee. We deal with this gross insufficiency with by adding human judgement and introduce both essential human analysis and a tendency to measure the value of interpersonal relationships instead of objective worth.

Organizations at scale end up either full of shit because they don't know what they aren't able to measure or full of shit because they are mostly measuring who is esteemed by whom. I have personally never worked for an outfit that wasn't basically full of shit. The well performing did so more as a function of having a functional culture of people who were capable enough and honestly cared about doing good work not because they were great at measuring worth.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#232
post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

Bluntly, taking business advice from an academic who has never worked in the private sector is suicide. If you attempt to socialize losses and cut pay, your best employees leave for other opportunities while your worst performers stick around. That’s a recipe for disaster in a competitive market. When done surgically, laying off non-productive employees can improve the morale of the top performing employees, because…

You know that's bs, right? They took the cheap money, hired a bunch of people to do 'cool' stuff like VR and feed junk adtech directly to your brain, speech assistants to buy stuff that you don't need and self driving which failed to deliver on inflated promisses and when those things failed they're axing those projects along with the people who worked on them.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#233
post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

> they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut.

The problem (to me) is...

senior management is almost universally involved in making these types of decisions, basically in a vacuum with no outside input (aka, no democracy/voting)

how often do a collective group of senior managers decide to give themselves paycuts? almost never?...

everybody thinks they work hard, overcame a ton of adversity, and deserve "theirs"

reminds me of the goodfellas scene where billy batts is drunk at the bar talking to jimmy

CONWAY: It's changed, now. You've been away for six years, everything is different.

BATTS: I did my time, Jimmy. I did my fuckin' time, I come home, and I want what I wanna get. I got fuckin' mouths to feed. You understand?

CONWAY: (acquiescing) You're gonna get it. You're gonna get it.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#234
post #220
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "payment" can be taken in the form of higher share price, share buybacks, dividends, future dividends, etc. It does not have take one specific form or another. Despite the fact that Google doesn't pay dividends, it's not a charity. Investors purchase shares of Google in order to get a return, and they have a choice between buying Google or a mortgage bond or ATT, etc. Now for growth companies like Google, they ar…

Well, so in theory they could have used some of the billions they have on hand to start a dividend to prop up the stock price while making their own decisions about staffing. This narrative that the market forced them to do layoffs feels flimsy when they have so much money, doesn't it? They had other options.

> This narrative that the market forced them to do layoffs feels flimsy when they have so much money, doesn't it? They had other options.

The options they have is to abandon positioning themselves as a growth stock and say "we are now an income stock". You are right, this is a valid choice.

But think a little about what this would mean for Google. This is a company that has one cash cow -- Search. Pretty much everything else is losing money. But only a small share of Google employees are actually needed to run search. So if they tell the market "We are no longer a growth stock", then why are they spending all this money on money losing projects? The rationale up until now was that these are moonshots where some of them would turn into the next big search. That's what a growth company does, but not what an income generating company does.

So my guess is that Google does not want to transition to being an income earning company because that would require laying off a lot more people. You can lay off 80% of Google's staff and just keep search, and then turn those profits over to investors. Google does not do that because it is still promising growth.

But I agree that at some point, the market isn't going to accept the growth story for Google, and this type of transition will happen. Google has also been sucking up a lot of first class talent and putting them to work on money losing projects without a lot to show for it. Those top developers really belong elsewhere, from an economic efficiency point of view -- they should be working on things that really are legit growth opportunities.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#235
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having seen both, I'm much more likely to leave /after/ a layoff than after a 10% paycut. In abstract, if there were a way to rank employees by ROI and contribution perfectly fairly, I might not worry about layoffs personally. However: 1) In my career, I've never seen layoffs which were at all good at selecting the bottom 10%. Who gets dropped is pretty random. 2) I care about other people I work with. A 10% layoff m…

> 1) In my career, I've never seen layoffs which were at all good at selecting the bottom 10%. Who gets dropped is pretty random. This is very true, and I would say definitely the biggest weakness of my point. In a theoretical world in which you can drop the bottom 10% of performers, I think that's clearly the right thing to do, but obviously practice is not the same as theory. I will say the one other thing about 10…

> If you're cutting my pay but still maintaining a shareholder dividend, I am gone.

After 1-2 years in any big tech company your equity surpasses your salary.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#236
post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

> The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs.

This is the fourth bout of "layoffitis" I've lived through in the tech industry, and I think this professor is really nailing it.

> Seems like it would also increase stress and encourage top performers to seek new opportunities.

You don't have to cut pay for key performers. You can offer retention incentives to key people. You can cut bad leaders and promote people (and give them a raise). Every time I've had to preside over layoffs (three times, all working for a big corporation), I got to ID my key people and offer them raises to stay on after the layoffs. The high performers that were laid off? They weren't the people that were the right ones to get the company through the hard times and the recovery. Often they were people that were great at their core job, but did not take on anything extra - and when everyone will have to take on extra, hearing "not in my job description" is, well, a big problem for the remaining team.

> hired during the 2000 recession

Ok, I'll let you in on a secret. When you see companies do layoffs, they are cutting costs, and big salaries are easy targets for cuts. The secret is that layoffs aren't permanent headcount cuts. Almost every time, the highest cost, non-essential people are cut, and then shortly after, people are promoted and the hiring starts anew, at a lower starting wage than before (I suspect in this economy, there's enough wage pressure that this will not work). I remember when I was in my 20s and 30s hearing older employees getting laid off who had 30 years of cost-of-living raises and made 2.5x what I did for the same job lament how it was ageism. Now that I'm 50, I see this as a sad truth: if you don't make yourself worth 2.5x someone 20 years younger, you aren't going to get paid 2.5x more forever.

> I suppose this works when it works, and then fails completely when it doesn’t.

You have to have an empathetic, "yes" to the question, "will customers continue to buy from US (over the competition) during a recession." If there's no way to grow, no way to win market share, then you really do have to batten down the hatches.

> this increases the risk profile on the company

This is especially true if you have to raise money to hire during a recession.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#237
post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

> Perhaps there are no “good” strategies- just those that favor employees or those that favor investors.

I don't think this is the case. Cutting costs is hard in tech companies because the biggest cost is usually people. If cuts are intelligent and needed, it's good for the remaining employees, customers and investors. If cuts are for the sake of "everyone is doing it" then, it's extra.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#238
"Layoffs kill people, literally. They kill people in a number of ways. Layoffs increase the odds of suicide by two and a half times. This is also true outside of the United States, even in countries with better social safety nets than the U.S., like New Zealand."

---

A pedestrian is struck by a vehicle while crossing the road far away from a zebra crossing. Who is to blame?

There is a certain portion of people who will answer this question by saying: "Everyone but the pedestrian".

The driver of the vehicle is at fault for striking the pedestrian because he failed to react quickly enough. Or because he drove too fast.

The council is responsible for the accident as they failed to provide a designated crossing area where the pedestrian intended to cross.

The pedestrian was crossing the road to reach a coffee shop on the opposite side, thus it could be argued that the coffee shop owner's decision to open their establishment on the other side of the road, or away from a safe crossing point, may have contributed to the accident.

The education system is at fault for not providing the pedestrian with sufficient knowledge on when it is safe to cross the road, which may have led to the accident.

It could be argued that the accident is a result of societal values that prioritize vehicles over pedestrians, as it is evident in the lack of infrastructure that prioritizes the safety of those who walk.

"Everyone but the pedestrian".

I hate this kind of argumentation and this article is a great example of the kind of epistemiological overreach that social sciences are guilty of in the last years. Everything now is a hysterical overreaction. No. Layoffs don't kill people.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The layoffs without consultation with the lower levels will indeed leave a bitter taste. It gives the impression that hard work isn't awarded if the top management level has no visibility over your work. This will result in departments spending much more time selling their work, rather than actually doing the work. In the end, this is counterproductive for a company.

If you’ve never been in a layoff where you lost someone you trust as much as you trust yourself, it’s a terrible experience that may come to define your time at the company. If they can lay “Dave” off they can lay any of us off. What if I’m next? Or god what if you’re next? I do not want your job and they’ll make me do it if you’re gone. I have to be very careful in meetings now, save 95% of my political capital for…

Cassandra the db or the mythical figure?

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#240
post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

> Seems like it would also increase stress and encourage top performers to seek new opportunities.

There's a third route: cut hours.

Everybody gets every other Friday off, and with that 10% reduction in hours, they get a 10% reduction in pay.

It doesn't solve everything, but reduces the feeling of unfairness because your per-hour rate stays the same. (Provided you cancel less-important projects, etc. so that people actually have less work, not just nominally.)

I think this approach is more common in cyclical industries like manufacturing. If you're probably going to need those people again, you want to keep them around. But if the goal is to reduce the company size, you could try combining it with attrition.

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