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The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

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Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balancing a nationwide power grid is very complex. Some energy sources can be started and stopped instantly, but are limited - water. Others are plentiful, but unpredictable - wind. Others are predictable, but take a long time to start and stop - gas, coal(several hours), nuclear(1 day to start, fast to stop, but very expensive). A balanced grid will need all of them, will need them in quantities which can cover faul…

HVDC is now a thing. Collecting solar in Northern Austrialia and sending it to Singapore over a 3800km long transmission line. Under construction now.

To be clear, Sun Cable entered administration this week. I wouldn’t hold your breath.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-11/sun-cable-enters-admi...

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#232
This report on congestion in the Australian NEM is pretty good reading on the concept of electricity network congestion and some of the market mechanisms that have been used to account for it, and some of the ways in which they can result in non-optimal outcomes. It's quite approachable:

https://www.aemc.gov.au/sites/default/files/content/42a1dfd9...

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#233
Wind in the UK has been doing really well recently and the grid has never been greener:

https://grid.iamkate.com/

Curtailment is still rare though, but if we really run into the issue of frequently having too much electricity then surely investing in synthetic fuel production will be economical, right? I mean we'll have to do it anyway sooner or later. There will always be a need to burn stuff and fossil fuels will run out.

Also don't forget that with increasingly more EVs on the road and vehicle-to-grid technology (which should be mandatory in my opinion) we are increasing our ability to time shift our energy usage to better take advantage of the volatility of renewables.

I personally don't think we can ever have too much electricity.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#234
post #197
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's this incredible project to build a 10GW solar farm in Morocco (1/3 of UK peak consumption) and bring the power to the UK via HVDC cable. Amazingly they estimate only 10% losses despite being over 3800km long: https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/ Surely HVDC links between Scotland and England could be built? And then there are pumped hydropower storage project like this one with a proposed storage capac…

> Surely HVDC links between Scotland and England could be built? The article covers this and explains why it's not enough. Provisioning time for the links exceeds projected generation capacity increases in the Scotland.

It seems like the planning isn't so great, though. They expect to have another 4 GW of links by 2029, which is enough for the wind overshoot today, but there will be a lot more wind by 2029... so, double the investment and build 8 GW of links by 2029.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#235
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power plants can vary their output faster than most people think, see https://www.oecd-nea.org/upload/docs/application/pdf/2021-12... ... most of the modern light water nuclear reactors are capable (by design) to operate in a load following mode, i.e. to change their power level once or twice per day in the range of 100% to 50% (or even lower) of the rated power, with a ramp rate of up to 5% (or even more) of…

Varying output from a nuclear plant is mostly achieved by simply releasing the generated steam into the atmosphere instead of sending it through the turbine[1]. But operating a nuclear plant in this fashion pushes up the price per MWh considerably given their very high cap-ex and op-ex. And while fuel cost is negligible for nuclear, creating more nuclear waste per useful MWh generated is a further drag on costs. So a…

Your reference for [1] just states that bypassing the turbine is a thing, not that it's normally used.

First, reactors are in a stable equilibrium when operating, so one will actually increase their power by increasing the rate at which heat is removed (and v.v.). Alas, that's workable only within some small range.

A reason[1] load-following with PWRs was originally difficult is that traditionally PWRs use boron concentration in primary loop to regulate power and that can be decreased only slowly. The reason it's done that way is that it's the easiest way to ensure that power is adjusted uniformly throughout the core; if instead some control rods were partially inserted, the top part of the core would operate at lower power (and thus lower fuel burn-up) than the bottom part, which would cause compounding control issues later on.

France is using their PWRs in load-following mode by (a) having additional less absorptive control rods ("gray rods") that can be inserted fully to adjust power by smaller increments (b) more complicated schemes to decide which combination of available actuations to use to change power. See https://hal.science/hal-01496376/document for a paper that tries to optimize control designs so that power changes are more possible (and describes how the control schemes work).

Note that the total heat capacity of even just the primary loop in usual reactors is quite large: in PWRs it usually requires ~0.5s of full power output of the reactor to warm it by 1degC, so this can easily cover, say, ~5% variations for something like a minute.

[1] Another is that reactors are not stateless due to xenon poisoning.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#236
post #233

Wind in the UK has been doing really well recently and the grid has never been greener: https://grid.iamkate.com/ Curtailment is still rare though, but if we really run into the issue of frequently having too much electricity then surely investing in synthetic fuel production will be economical, right? I mean we'll have to do it anyway sooner or later. There will always be a need to burn stuff and fossil fuels will r…

In the Netherlands they are going to build two new nuclear power plants but the company wants assurance that they don't have to compete with the massive wind mill parks on the North Sea.

Not really a new problem for the Netherlands whenever there is a problem the country tends to overreact with massive infrastructure spending. It hasn't been that long that brand new coal power plants had to be closed.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#238
One has to wonder if the fixed costs of some kind of electricity -> fuel production will ever get cheap enough to solve this problem. If it would pay, it would be great for there to be a factory on stand-by to make, e.g., hydrogen or ethanol using the extra energy.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#239
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power plants can vary their output faster than most people think, see https://www.oecd-nea.org/upload/docs/application/pdf/2021-12... ... most of the modern light water nuclear reactors are capable (by design) to operate in a load following mode, i.e. to change their power level once or twice per day in the range of 100% to 50% (or even lower) of the rated power, with a ramp rate of up to 5% (or even more) of…

Varying output from a nuclear plant is mostly achieved by simply releasing the generated steam into the atmosphere instead of sending it through the turbine[1]. But operating a nuclear plant in this fashion pushes up the price per MWh considerably given their very high cap-ex and op-ex. And while fuel cost is negligible for nuclear, creating more nuclear waste per useful MWh generated is a further drag on costs. So a…

It seems obvious that nuclear can not compete against natural gas when natural gas is priced cheaply and the pollution caused by fossil fuel is put on society rather than the operator. A combined grid of renewables and fossil fuels has been the primary strategy in most European countries and was working very well in keeping prices low until Russia invaded Ukraine.

The big problem is that energy prices are set based on the most expensive unit that needs to be turned on to meet demand. Renewables do not tend to be that during periods of low supply, as low supply of energy in the eu market generally means sub-optimal weather conditions for renewables. It is going to be either fossil fuels, nuclear, or battery. If we take out fossil fuels then that leaves battery or nuclear. Neither is very economical without subsidies. Governments (and tax paying citizens) are however very keen on grid stability and thus willing to spend a lot of money to keep it running.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power plants can vary their output faster than most people think, see https://www.oecd-nea.org/upload/docs/application/pdf/2021-12... ... most of the modern light water nuclear reactors are capable (by design) to operate in a load following mode, i.e. to change their power level once or twice per day in the range of 100% to 50% (or even lower) of the rated power, with a ramp rate of up to 5% (or even more) of…

The problem is taking the most expensive power source with a large portion of the costs being the initial investment and then not running it 100% is economical suicide.

Not if the market provides incentives to curtail, which it does with negative pricing. If other energy sources can curtail enough at the same price, they’ll do it. Otherwise nuclear will. The costs you’re alluding to can’t be avoided, but they’ll be spread across the system.

This is all predicated on the market operator actually having the systems in place to signal the need for curtailment effectively, of course. That’s a whole different question.

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