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New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

theautopian.com

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Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#231

Post by r0m4n0 »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #218
r0m4n0 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s mostly caused by the folks making abrupt lane changes as the Tesla slows down. You can see people start to swerve into other lanes instead of just slowing down (they are looking in their side mirrors to avoid the slow car and sometimes even accelerate). I’ve had this happen where you are cruising at a speed and the person in front of you serves to avoid a slow car and now you lose all of the time to reac…

> Side tangent, I love watching car crash videos. Your and my YouTube feed algorithms.... They kind of creep me out when it is a crash that was not avoidable. But, boy, most of the crashes have me talking to the computer display, "What are you thinking? You have no stopping distance at all, I know exactly what's coming up in about 3 seconds!"

Exactly! Sometimes when I’m driving I get a weird sense of a terrible crash that I couldn’t see coming. I should probably give the videos a break

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#232

Post by paulryanrogers »

modeless wrote: post #197
actionfromafar wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here is the whole problem. It’s not good UX.

Automatic switching between FSD and Autopilot is not any kind of UX problem. There is no reason the driver needs to be aware of it. The driver does not need to take any action at all. The only difference is the type of road. But which software was in use is relevant here because people are trying to blame this on FSD. Whenever you're on a freeway, Autopilot is used automatically instead of FSD, so FSD had nothing to…

When responsible for overseeing a multi-ton vehicle, I like to know how it will behave. Cruise control and lane assist I understand. I need to know which one is in control and how it will behave if they can respond differently.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#233

Post by modeless »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #230
modeless wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. You can plainly see in the video (and the hundreds of others) that as soon as the car enters the freeway it switches to Autopilot automatically. The easiest way to tell is the red lines in the FSD visualization disappear when it switches to Autopilot. The transition is completely smooth and the driver doesn't have to know or care at all, so it's not surprising that they were mistaken. But it's relevant here be…

If drivers are unlikely to notice the transition and the capabilities are significantly different that seems problematic.

It is not problematic because the capability of Autopilot on freeways is not significantly different to FSD on other roads. Drivers do not need to adjust their behavior based on the system in use. Of course they should keep hands on wheel and eyes on road at all times using both systems, which is enforced with regular nagging and a driver-facing camera.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#234

Post by Jach »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #208
sokoloff wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I brake check someone on the highway, causing an accident, and it’s discovered that that’s what happened, I’d be pretty shocked* if the trailing driver was found responsible. That video looks like a combined lane change and brake check on the part of the Tesla. * and disappointed

Lane change + braking is extremely scary. I rear-ended a woman who did that to me. When she cut in front of me in my lane there was not nearly enough distance between us for me to fully stop when she then suddenly braked. I'm not sure what I really was even supposed to even do in a situation like that — I suppose as soon as she cut over I should have just assumed the worst was coming and hit my brakes right away?

Or at least have the foot off the gas. I try to have or create if I don't distance between myself and aggressive drivers. But even with defensive / paranoid driving sometimes there's just not much you can do, physics is physics.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#235

Post by vagrantJin »

axelfontaine wrote: post #205
throwaway892238 wrote: post #200

I'm still waiting for autonomous-only lanes. For extremely long and boring highways (usually full of trucks), this just seems like the logical conclusion of all self-driving tech to me. Dedicate one lane to self-driving, have the vehicles all on autonomous mode, and have them keep enough distance so their braking performance prevents them from crashing in an unexpected stop. You should be able to literally just sleep…

We have this technology today. It's called trains.

Ha!

Thanks for cutting through the meandering, pseudo-intellectual cruft with an answer than makes too much sense.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#236

Post by onethought »

MBCook wrote: post #127
amf12 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the police report, out of the 8 cars, only 3 cars were noted to have been driving unsafe for the stopped traffic ahead. The rest of the cars were propelled into the car in front by the car behind them hitting them.

That makes a lot of sense. Doesn’t matter how careful I am if the person behind me only gave themselves 10 feet to react and stop.

Somewhat counter intuitively, and to great frustration of the person behind. The safe thing to do when someone is tailgating is to give more space in front of you so that you can brake more softly giving them more time to react.

Or pull over and let them pass, as people often use tailgating to attempt to indicate the car in front is too slow.

Edit: (tailgating = follow too closely)

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#238

Post by markdown »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #219
chinathrow wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Said no one in Europe, ever.

In the US, 200 years is a long time, and the train doesn't go where you're going. In Europe, 200 km is a long distance, and it might.

In Singapore, 50 years is a long time and the train goes where you're going.

I'm not saying the US could pull off a Singapore, but there's no excuse for San Francisco, or LA, or any other large city to have done so.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#239

Post by somethoughts »

modeless wrote: post #202
7e wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. Here’s a video of FSD in use on a freeway. There are hundreds of these. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E-RHYbvIZYo

Wrong. You can plainly see in the video (and the hundreds of others) that as soon as the car enters the freeway it switches to Autopilot automatically. The easiest way to tell is the red lines in the FSD visualization disappear when it switches to Autopilot. The transition is completely smooth and the driver doesn't have to know or care at all, so it's not surprising that they were mistaken. But it's relevant here be…

My take is that you are probably right in that it is pretty easy for Tesla to place all the blame on the driver of the Tesla and weasel out of any legally required support for the driver via TOS fine legal print in the short term.

But after the 10th (or maybe 100th) scenario where Tesla FSD is at fault but Tesla scapegoats responsibility onto the driver who is branded by Tesla's legal team as a dumb/irresponsible/clueless/reckless driver it starts making less sense.

That driver is likely to have been a highly loyal Tesla fan/customer/evangelist/believer who paid $10,000 for FSD sight unseen. Long term the evangelists might no longer evangelize and may in fact (correctly or incorrectly) spread the message to the general public that FSD is useless/unfinished feature - leading to long term damage to the Tesla brand.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#240

Post by toast0 »

somethoughts wrote: post #65

I think what's interesting here is it's likely the first instance where Tesla FSD has been involved in an accident which affected other drivers. [Edit] From the video the Tesla is making a lane change and stopping simultaneously which means there could be a case of the Tesla FSD/driver doing a unsafe lane change.[1] Most of the time FSD just wrecks the Tesla itself or injures the driver of the Tesla (i.e. running int…

> It will be interesting if Tesla comes in to provide monetary support for proving the legal case that Tesla FSD is not at fault or the Tesla driver (and his insurance) will be left to fend for themselves.

> In the short term I could see Tesla not supporting the driver and absolving themselves via fine line/TOS, etc.

> But the long term effects of not legally supporting any driver with Tesla FSD accidents will be that new customers won't trust this $10000 upsell product offering that's highly profitable for Tesla.

Tesla publicly disparages people who died relying on their products, and refuses to cooperate with the NTSB. I'd expect nothing less in this case. Somehow that hasn't been a big factor in sales.

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