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EU adopts global minimum 15% tax on big business

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Re: EU adopts global minimum 15% tax on big business

#231

Post by carlosjobim »

johnchristopher wrote: post #84
Negitivefrags wrote: post #33

I don't really like this kind of idea because it really goes against a kind of fundemental freedom. "If you don't like it, you can leave". Instead, laws around making sure that the profits generated from a countries citizens are taxed by that country make more sense to me. A lot of laws around that already exist, and I suppose a lot of people would say that they have not been effective. A lot of it comes down to the…

> I don't really like this kind of idea because it really goes against a kind of fundemental freedom. "If you don't like it, you can leave". That's not fundamental freedom, that's a variation on Hobson's choice.

Freedom to move about or leave any place is the most fundamental freedom that exists. It is practically synonymous with the word "freedom".

Re: EU adopts global minimum 15% tax on big business

#232

Post by carlosjobim »

dahfizz wrote: post #57
Jensson wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax companies that are currently hiding profits in tax havens. The idea is basically that companies headquartering in tax havens will get taxed anyway, until they pay 15% total global tax on those profits. No single country can do this, but when almost all countries agree to do it then companies can no longer hide.

> Tax companies that are currently hiding profits in tax havens. > No single country can do this I don't understand. If America already has a >15% tax rate, then it already abides by these rules. America is not a tax haven.

As one of the states in the USA, Delaware is probably the largest tax haven in the world.

Re: EU adopts global minimum 15% tax on big business

#233

Post by rsj_hn »

carlosjobim wrote: post #232
dahfizz wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tax companies that are currently hiding profits in tax havens. > No single country can do this I don't understand. If America already has a >15% tax rate, then it already abides by these rules. America is not a tax haven.

As one of the states in the USA, Delaware is probably the largest tax haven in the world.

Why do you think Delaware is a tax haven? Many business incorporate there because they have the legal infrastructure so that you are not in court in some boondocks with poorly established corporate case law if there is a lawsuit. But you don't pay less taxes by incorporating in Delaware, you reduce legal uncertainty.

If you want an example of tax haven, Montana's a better bet.

Re: EU adopts global minimum 15% tax on big business

#234

Post by carlosjobim »

woodruffw wrote: post #79
leereeves wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top three percent is fairly rich. > The Revenue Act of 1913 ... established a one percent tax on income above $3,000 per year; the tax affected approximately three percent of the population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1913

Not in absolute terms: the fact that 97% of Americans in 1913 made less than $80,000 equivalent per year is more a testament to America (and broadly the world's) staggering poverty relative to our current wealth. Put another way: you can't tax destitute people (at least not for long, and not without losing your head), but can absolutely can tax the average American household in 2021[1]. [1]: https://www.census.gov/li…

Destitute people have always been heavily taxed, since the beginning of civilization. It's called interest on farm loans, rent, work duty, soldier duty, etc.

Re: EU adopts global minimum 15% tax on big business

#235

Post by kwere »

abeppu wrote: post #183
alkonaut wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was trying to invent some “fair taxation scheme” I’d tax the profit based on the revenue in that country. So if a company had $100B global revenue and $10B global profit and 0% of the profit was in France while 10% of the revenue was in France, then the company should be taxed based on the $1B profit that can be attributed to France based on revenue there. Any other scheme seems it’s prone to creative licensing…

Maybe this is obvious to people that do accounting for multinationals, but it's not clear to me how you even establish that 10% of the revenue was in France. If a global company like Google pays a global company like Apple $K billion to be the default search engine on iphones, should Apple consider that revenue to be all in the US because Google is headquartered in the US even though it's purchasing something that wi…

a "simple" solution would be requiring companies to set up legal entities/subsidiaries into the countries they make above xx millions of revenue, getting taxed at the local level, keeping simultaneously things simple for small companies which may sell across borders.

Re: EU adopts global minimum 15% tax on big business

#236

Post by kwere »

mywittyname wrote: post #101
djbebs wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because businesses are owned by people who in turn are taxed. In effect any corporation tax is a double tax.

> In effect any corporation tax is a double tax. There are a whole host of corporate entities which allow for pass-through taxation: LLC, S-Corp, sole proprietorships, and the like. I'd be surprised if European countries didn't have similar mechanisms.

sole proprietorships are taxed at personal income level but pay pension contributions and/others at a % level, the game became unwhorthy at six figures levels. the way out are paying the lifestyle like SUVs with company funds (deductibles) and if worthy setting paper boxes to pay lower taxes. Example: San Marino offeres Trust funds that are easily taxed at 1.7% on income (can take money out after 2 accounting years). quite handy to build family/long term wealth

Re: EU adopts global minimum 15% tax on big business

#238

Post by CHY872 »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #152
r00fus wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the opposite. You can't fake revenue nearly as much as you can fake profits. Examples are legion - look at any company in the US that pays 0% (or negative) corporate tax rate.

You are not understanding the issue. Revenue can be trivially made to disappear, and this is what actually happens when governments tax revenue. Revenue is recognized as the size of a sales transaction. The number of sales transactions required to build and sell a given product can vary enormously based on the structure of the business, usually as a product of optimizing for efficiency and specialization. When you ta…

To make sure I understand your point, is the argument that without a revenue tax, you're incentivised to sell as much of your stuff as possible, whereas with a revenue tax you're incentivised to maximise your margin, and this makes things inefficient for everyone downstream of you?

Re: EU adopts global minimum 15% tax on big business

#239

Post by johnchristopher »

chmod600 wrote: post #114
johnchristopher wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't really like this kind of idea because it really goes against a kind of fundemental freedom. "If you don't like it, you can leave". That's not fundamental freedom, that's a variation on Hobson's choice.

I assume you refer to people who can't reasonably leave for whatever reason. But even if you can't leave, seeing the results of another country that does something a different way is a valuable comparison point that can drive a change of policy where you are.

> But even if you can't leave, seeing the results of another country that does something a different way is a valuable comparison point that can drive a change of policy where you are.

True, one could argue that seeing the results in other countries that do things a different way was indeed valuable and the lesson was to adopt a global minimum 15% tax on big business.

Re: EU adopts global minimum 15% tax on big business

#240

Post by johnchristopher »

carlosjobim wrote: post #231
johnchristopher wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't really like this kind of idea because it really goes against a kind of fundemental freedom. "If you don't like it, you can leave". That's not fundamental freedom, that's a variation on Hobson's choice.

Freedom to move about or leave any place is the most fundamental freedom that exists. It is practically synonymous with the word "freedom".

Nobody is preventing big business to do business outside of Europe. Eh, "Take it or leave it", right ?
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