How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores • Hacker News Board

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#231

Post by sph » Fri, Nov 18, 2022, 10:24 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #227

bheadmaster wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, I just show them the people who smoke, and ask them if they want to be like them. What happens when they see all the rich and famous people on TV who also smoke and sing/rap about smoking? What makes you so sure they won't want to be like them ?

I show them the people that smoke because they want to look like those people on TV. Smoking is mainly about trying to look cool, which in the end makes you look stupid. And once you see that, you cannot unsee it. My kids already see it. And looking at the people that smoke, just confirms the theory.

Holy shit, the judgemental attitude, and the ignorance.

So people that have been smoking for years, i.e. addicts (I am an ex nicotine addict), only do it because it looks cool? Geez, alright.

Must be nice up on that ivory tower of ignorance, and again, I mean it with no disrespect but in the purest sense of the word: you don't know what you're talking about, yet you think you're smarter than anybody else in the room because you had the fortune to live a sheltered life of strong preconceptions about the world.

Hope you enjoy the vista from up there.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#232

Post by bheadmaster » Fri, Nov 18, 2022, 10:59 PM UTC

quechimba wrote: post #230

bheadmaster wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should some sober people's consensus trump the criteria of people in altered states of consciousness? Because hallucinating people usually aren't in consensus about what is real, while sober people are. Consensus is the only criteria for reality we have, don't we? Not saying that consensus makes it a reality, but it's the best indicator of whatever we're calling reality.

In the Amazon rainforest, the consensus is that spirits are real. Why would they be hallucinating? Most people don't drink ayahuasca.

As I said, consensus doesn't make reality, only indicates it. Sometimes the consensus is wrong - in the middle age, consensus was that the Earth is in the center of the universe.

But it's still the best indicator we have. And consensus is measured by numbers, so Amazon rainforest guys aren't really more meaningful than flat earthers, alien abductees and scientologists. Of course, number is only a shorthand - in the age of modern science, all knowledge about reality must fit into the general framework that explains and predicts reality in order to be worthy of being considered true, regardless of how many people believe it. But that boils down to consistency again.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#233

Post by driuha » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 1:10 AM UTC

GaryPalmer wrote: post #96

system2 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to be under the radar go ahead. It is a strict controlled substance. Spores are just loopholes but can't be sure if you don't get a visit one day.

Hard drugs and research chemicals are ordered and sent daily via mail, and the only people getting vists are the vendors. I highly doubt anyone cares enough about john doe ordering some spores to put him on a list or show up at his home. I am in a conservative EU country and you can legally buy spores and growkits since forever here, nobody cares. You have to find specialized shops because there is not even enough de…

That's what vendors will tell you but customers get visits from customs all the time. And in that unfortunate case you'll get charged with contraband plus everything they'll get on you on top of that. You probably won't have proper opsec and your house will be searched and electronics will be confiscated, plus there will be some surveillance prior to that. I'm not talking specifically about spores here, more about general onion shopping. Its easy to get in the mindset that nobody cares about a user but if you get unlucky your life will take quite a hit.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#234

Post by mancerayder » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 2:30 AM UTC

vga805 wrote: post #70

Ayahuasca ceremonies are among the most profound, cherished experiences of my life. I prepare for months before partaking in them to make sure my emotional, physical, and spiritual health is in a good place. And I can't imagine taking this drug without being under the care of experienced guides. I also wouldn't recommend it for anyone except those who really desire to push the limits of their mind. Some trips have fe…

>Ayahuasca ceremonies are among the most profound, cherished experiences of my life. I prepare for months before partaking in them to make sure my emotional, physical, and spiritual health is in a good place.

If set and setting are so important, what does that say about it being an aid for negative ailments like anxiety and depression.

It, like a lot of psychedelica, sound like a great thing for people who are otherwise in great emotional shape, and want to find themselves or take it to the next level.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#235

Post by euroderf » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 5:55 AM UTC

bheadmaster wrote: post #211

pmoriarty wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you pick car driving as the measure of reality? Why not pick love making, or singing, appreciating or making music, laughing, communing with spirits or gods, feeling empathy for others, or making art?

Because when you hit someone with a car, they die. When you have bad sex, it's just bad sex. In other words, driving a car requires much better connection with reality in order to make sure you're doing it right, and doing it wrong has much harder consequences than the things you've listed. Sure, all those things are pleasant to people, but that doesn't have anything to do with them being "real". When you watch a goo…

Driving a car is just conditioning yourself thru repetition to operate one particularly dangerous mechanical device thru dynamic environments. No biggie.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#236

Post by GaryPalmer » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 6:01 AM UTC

driuha wrote: post #233

GaryPalmer wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard drugs and research chemicals are ordered and sent daily via mail, and the only people getting vists are the vendors. I highly doubt anyone cares enough about john doe ordering some spores to put him on a list or show up at his home. I am in a conservative EU country and you can legally buy spores and growkits since forever here, nobody cares. You have to find specialized shops because there is not even enough de…

That's what vendors will tell you but customers get visits from customs all the time. And in that unfortunate case you'll get charged with contraband plus everything they'll get on you on top of that. You probably won't have proper opsec and your house will be searched and electronics will be confiscated, plus there will be some surveillance prior to that. I'm not talking specifically about spores here, more about ge…

What country are you living in that has enough money to surveill average joe and kick in his door because he orders some small quantity of drugs? If you want to get dozents of users on the hook for possesion you could just raid a random nightclub, that's a thing that actually happens - but even that is rare.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#237

Post by ramblerman » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 6:15 AM UTC

bheadmaster wrote: post #100

vga805 wrote: post #70

Ayahuasca ceremonies are among the most profound, cherished experiences of my life. I prepare for months before partaking in them to make sure my emotional, physical, and spiritual health is in a good place. And I can't imagine taking this drug without being under the care of experienced guides. I also wouldn't recommend it for anyone except those who really desire to push the limits of their mind. Some trips have fe…

It doesn't seem far fetched to me that your own mind could've manufactured such a reaction - especially if the shamans all tried to convince you that the spirits are real, and you felt "guilty" that you didn't believe them. Your mind could simulate the reaction you'd have feared you'd get if you shared your thoughts with the shamans, perhaps? I am personally very skeptical of the "realness" of anything that happens d…

> I am personally very skeptical of the "realness" of anything that happens during a hallucination.

If you interpret "realness" as do they exist in the real world, then of course no.

But perhaps the subconscious mind is manifesting these "entities" so that some communication with it is possible. In that sense they are a real part of you, and you could perhaps gleam benefits from such an interaction.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#238

Post by bheadmaster » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 11:41 AM UTC

euroderf wrote: post #235

bheadmaster wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because when you hit someone with a car, they die. When you have bad sex, it's just bad sex. In other words, driving a car requires much better connection with reality in order to make sure you're doing it right, and doing it wrong has much harder consequences than the things you've listed. Sure, all those things are pleasant to people, but that doesn't have anything to do with them being "real". When you watch a goo…

Driving a car is just conditioning yourself thru repetition to operate one particularly dangerous mechanical device thru dynamic environments. No biggie.

Making love is just thrusting your penis into vagina until you finish. No biggie.

Singing/making music is just making random sounds until they sound good. No biggie.

Speaking to god is just saying whatever comes out of your mind until you feel better. No biggie.

---

Everything can be made to sound silly when you oversimplify it. Such arguments don't have anything to do with activity "being real" at all.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#239

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 1:33 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #180

sph wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't know much about something, here's my opinion." The fact that you don't distinguish between categories of drugs is, no offence, a major indicator of ignorance in the subject matter. Hallucinogens are not stimulants are not depressants are not dissociatives are not alcohol. If you mean "illegal drugs", do you really think that the objective, scientific threshold between harmful and harmless is legality? You ar…

Whatever you recommend to take, I'm sure one of the people I know took it. Did it improve their already normal life? I highly doubt it. I'm not discussing that when you have an illness or mental problem that drugs might help (or which drugs). But just take it because somehow it would "enhance" your life... still need to see proof of that. Most of the "enhancement" that I saw went to other direction.

[deleted]

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#240

Post by dorfsmay » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 2:06 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #184

saiya-jin wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you must be one of those few in western society that never touched alcohol, never smoked a cigarette and never consumed sugars! Not that its something to marvel at, but for sure you are a curiosity, just like your kids will be in society. On a more serious note, some drugs do much more good than harm. Some psychedelics have extremely good results when treating hard psychiatric patients with conditions our modern…

I' not a psychiatric patient, and neither are my kids, so I don't see what drugs could do for me. I'm 43 and never had a cigarette in my mouth, and very happy that I don't have to sit in that disgusting smell in cafes anymore. Do I drink alcohol? Yes. Would I mind if my kids don't drink alcohol? No. I saw alcohol destroy families. And your statement that somehow I and my kids would be curiosities in society just beca…

Congrats for not smoking and not using other destructive substances. The issue people are having here is how you're saying "I don't take drugs" and "I don't need them" as a position of judgement rather than as a conclusion of an analysis.

How do you define drug? You admit drinking alcohol which as you said destroys families, and a direct correlation has been shown between alcohol consumption and cancer. You cannot use a blanket statement "I don't use drug" without defining what a drug is. If your definition is what's legal, remember that alcohol was illegal in the US at some point and that both tobacco and weed are legal today.

When you say "I don't need them", do you drink coffee daily?? Do you eat pastries? If yes, why, given that they have mostly negative effect on health (very high calories, low fiber, low nutritient content) and that we don't need them?

It's great to establish hygiene rules based on fact, but reconsider judging others' rules without analysing them properly (hallucinogen are typically not addictive and don't have negative health effects when used in moderate quantities) and your own choices of rules which are somewhat arbitrary (you drink alcohol which is addictive and has negative effect even in small quatities).